PDA

View Full Version : thoughts


charles starks
03-14-2008, 06:10 PM
yep thats right im shooting to win this contest . so please . PLEASE post . ill do what ever it takes , grovel, beg .
You want period graving plate photos , I got’em , or a lot anyway . If your stick is castings , got photos as well . Rifle with lots of intricate inlays , stones , I got some
All credits will be given from any writings which these come from .
I need that graver so bad I can taste it .:hurray:
so now i hope i at least get a few posts :banghead:

ok so here we go

For those who study firearms history , engraving is very much part of that history .
Many of the more documented pieces of the 16,17. 18 centuries are highly relief engraved . They also many times are set with jewels and other precious stones , even tortuous shell , mother of pearl, gold , silver .
Today we don’t see this as much but for very few cases .
Engravings seem to be more commonly scroll work with relief , inlays are of metals most times just gold . While many of the historic pieces seem to have been done by masters that were highly skilled in all areas from inlay work to stone setting , to line graving and heavy relief work .

These pictures are from the documentation of Torsten Lenk who provides us with a look at not only weapons of the 1600 , 1700 but all so the engravings and castings of that time

What was lost ? How did these masters create such works without Pneumatics , be they gravers or rotary tools .
Why do we not longer see this type of engraving ?

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/scan0001.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/scan0004.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/scan0003-1.jpg

Finn La Rue
03-14-2008, 06:17 PM
Hey how about some Vector ( adobe format) scroll work of a gun barrel I need to do a paint ball gun and need some scroll work done for it . got any thing ?

• Trying to help out*

Keep up the good work

it would be nice if your pic where More close up. would be nice to see them with more with shading lines .

charles starks
03-14-2008, 06:35 PM
a high resolution format ? ill see what i can do about that in the main time ill see how high I can enlarge the above photos

Daniel Houwer
03-14-2008, 06:38 PM
please . PLEASE post . ill do what ever it takes , grovel, beg

Hi Charles,
I've just ordered mine because I don't think I can post an interesting enough thread to win a Lindsay. Here Is my post to you, hope you get it!

Good luck to you,

Daniel

charles starks
03-14-2008, 07:04 PM
ok how is this .
what would be you oppenion as to why we dont see this work anymore ?. also how was it done . while im sure some would have been castings , others there is no real way they gould be

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg1.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg5.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg4.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg6.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg3.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg7.jpg

charles starks
03-14-2008, 07:05 PM
thanks for the posts guys , keep them comming . remeber we are looking for oppenions and information to

DGrub
03-14-2008, 07:25 PM
Charles, I have wondered that also! Now that we have advanced tools, it would seem like that type of engraving would not take quite as long to perform. Maybe it is just "the human taste" for art has changed or evolved to look more modern....I really don't know. I like those "classic" designs though. Good luck on your post. I tried to win the artisian that Steve was giving away last fall but no luck.....so I just bought a Classic this past November. It is an awesome peice of equipment. I love mine!
Dan Grubaugh

charles starks
03-14-2008, 07:52 PM
ok here is some scrolls but again not like we often see today .
these are again from Torsten Lenk

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/scan0006.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg11.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/scan0005.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg10.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg8.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg9.jpg

charles starks
03-14-2008, 08:03 PM
Charles, I have wondered that also! Now that we have advanced tools, it would seem like that type of engraving would not take quite as long to perform. Maybe it is just "the human taste" for art has changed or evolved to look more modern....I really don't know. I like those "classic" designs though. Good luck on your post. I tried to win the artisian that Steve was giving away last fall but no luck.....so I just bought a Classic this past November. It is an awesome peice of equipment. I love mine!
Dan Grubaugh

well i may not win but im going to give it a shot .

What really amazes me about these works , and I have actually handled a couple just not these particular works , is the amount of relief. The transitions and back ground are as smooth as a babies behind . It cant but help to wonder just how they did this with nothing more then push and chase .
Some of the wire work is so fine its almost hair size .
One SXS that I actually have a schematic of , has a stock that is completely covered in tortuous shell which is then inlet with silver wire and silver engraved plates .
While I would agree that tastes have change , I cant help but wonder if at the same time , we lost or forgot the knowledge needed to do this work with very simple tools OR maybe we have just lost the patience for such work when you consider the time involved to complete even a small section of one of the barrels above .
For me at least this is the type of work that fascinates me . While modern scrolls and such are also truly wonderful with the old work its really compounded with the thought of thousands of hours just for one rifle and the overall very large scale knowledge and prospective needed to complete such an item .
As I said many of these weapons were done by people who had a complete understanding of all the materials , not just a couple venues

DGrub
03-14-2008, 08:55 PM
Hello Charles, I think that you are on the right track on the time thing. Back when a lot of those engravings were done, we must remember that people were a lot more limited as far as entertainment......TV, cars, computers, internet and such were not around, life was a lot different....alot slower paced I guess you could say. I know a lot of those engravings must have taken considerable amounts of time! I know I am always in awe of a lot of the deep relief engravings.....to think that they were done with H&C or pushed is really something. Very talented engravers.

Dan

Gobbler
03-14-2008, 09:20 PM
Charles
I believe the people are too fast paced to slow down and do fine / detailed work. The world has quantity standards and not longer has quality stadards
this being said in general across the board (not everyone) good luck with the contest.

Also what due you feel the difference in time of carving would be in the first picture you posted of Hand Carving vs. Pneumatic ????

Gravy
03-14-2008, 09:34 PM
Do you have any other details on Torstein Link? I notice you spelled the name differently in your posts and I wonder what the correct spelling is. I tried several permutations in Google, but I can't find anything related.

RussB
03-14-2008, 09:44 PM
Much like Gobbler, my thoughts are also that of time.
DGrum mentioned the lack of interference from the many things that could best be described as distractions.

Such engravings demand time, lots of time, and for the person who can dedicate the required amount of time into such engravings, while avoiding the majority of modern day distractions, then my hat is off to that person, and I do hope you are that person.:highfive:

Respectfully, Russ...

Beaverman
03-14-2008, 10:10 PM
Charles, very nice plates, guess I'm going to have to make a trip to Idaho to visit your shop sometime, when I get my fowler built Im heading your way with the lock and breech tang for some engraving, best get warmed up,can you handle it?

Jon in MI
03-15-2008, 07:43 AM
I aggree about the fast paced life style we live. Most people could not fathem waiting the time it takes to create these works of art.

Jon

btw good luck on the contest!

charles starks
03-15-2008, 08:05 AM
Do you have any other details on Torstein Link? I notice you spelled the name differently in your posts and I wonder what the correct spelling is. I tried several permutations in Google, but I can't find anything related.

sorry ill have to fix my spelling , its not one of my better points so
the correct spelling would be : Torsten Lenk

Dr , Torsten Link , was born at Varnum in Sweden on August 29 1890 . he died in 1957
He was the derector of the Swedish Royal Armory fro 1944-1957.
He joined the Royal Armory in 1924. The plates I have been posting scans of are from his Doctorial thesis which went to print in 1939.
If you don’t have a translation of this in your weapons history collection , you really should . Its required reading for many of the better period gunsmith classes here in the US
Its Titled
Torsten Lenk
The Flintlock: its origins and development .

Be ready to pay anywhere from 100.oo for a reprint and up to 500 for an original .
I paid if I recall 125 for my copy . About 7 years back


Now DR Lenk did not do these engravings . If you notice at the bottom of the full page plates you will see the name of the original artist .
In his book he has probably 200 different rifles , most either have close up B%W photos of the rifle , fully documented as to makers and timeframe about 25% have full copied of the engraving and casting plates

i went back and corrected the spellings . Sorry about that again its my weak point for sure

Beaverman
03-15-2008, 08:19 AM
Charles, have been mulling your thoughts over and I agree with you, I do all my leather work by hand, sew by hand, some folks realize how long it takes and realize it's a better end product than a machine sewn hunting pouch or other accoutrement and do not mind paying for quality, most though are looking for it now and looking for the bottom line, whats a fella to do?

jbullard1
03-15-2008, 08:25 AM
Well Thanks to Steve I have made it in
There is some real fine work being done here:cheers2:

Zernike Au
03-15-2008, 08:28 AM
Hi Charles, good post. Thanks for the photos. Your pictures are so beautiful. I love the antique scrolls so much and would like to study more about scrolls and the antique floral patterns.

I found the book at ebay: http://www.amazon.com/Flintlock-Its-Origin-Development-Use/dp/1602390126
is this the one as yours, the title seems a bit different...Barnes and Nobles and other online bookshop also selling this books. Where can I get the copy you mentioned? I have order the one on ebay.....

Any more other books or information that you can recommend to us, I can have a lot of questions:lol:

Zernike

charles starks
03-15-2008, 08:28 AM
Gobbler
the time required i would think would most certainly be considerable .
But im guessing here because I have
1) never tried to work at that level and frankly am no where capable of recreating it
To what I would consider any level of quality
2) I have yet to use a Pneumatic type system .
To this point my engraving has been with simple chase and push gravers , preferring the chase method . Which by the way is one of the reasons im so intrigued with this Lindsay Graver as it reproduces chase work IMO identically because of how it works .

If you look at some of the work of the folks on this web site as well as Mr Lindsey’s videos he has provided you will see what I mean

The first plate that I posted according to DR Lenk is dated 1660 and was done by Thuraine and Le Hollandois . These are actually 2 separate plates from their writings and are numbered plate 9 and 4.
Some of the other plates he shows are from Francois Marcou and Jean Berain from the mid 17th century .
Some of the Berain plates are simply extraordinary with the rifles being over the top with inlays of ruby , mother of pearl , silver wire work to the extreme, very few castings , yet extremely heavy in their relief of every component of the rifles . Which by the way are smooth rifles IE smooth bores with rear sights ..
Stock carving on these pieces also appears to be minimal with most all the work being bright work


But back to your question , I would think , but again the other folks here that use Pneumatics could better say as to if this is fact or not . But I would think it would cut the work time down considerable for someone who had mastered the use of this tool

charles starks
03-15-2008, 08:37 AM
Hi Charles, good post. Thanks for the photos. Your pictures are so beautiful. I love the antique scrolls so much and would like to study more about scrolls and the antique floral patterns.

I found the book at ebay: http://www.amazon.com/Flintlock-Its-Origin-Development-Use/dp/1602390126
is this the one as yours, the title seems a bit different...

Any more other books or information that you can recommend to us, I can have a lot of questions:lol:

Zernike

yes that’s the book , looks like its a new reprint of the original . mine is a hard back but should be i believe the same .
There is another fine book which I no longer have do to a loss some years back . It was put out by the Tower of London as I recall , ill see if I can find my old library logs and get the name for you .
Most all Dr Lenks works in the above book deal with French weapons and engraving while the Tower book was on English works
Also the Books by POPE and some of Hanson’s works have plates showing 17 and 18th century bright work

Gobbler
03-15-2008, 08:46 AM
Thanks Charles for your answer //

Another question never have done any engraving // What is the difference between a chase and a push graver I assume the obvious with push and would think the other is used in a pull fashion???

charles starks
03-15-2008, 08:53 AM
As I said though Im leaning to something changed , it appears to me at least “as a novice in this area “ that something along the way was lost .
This could have been from any number of things one most certainly natural evolution or even wars such as we see with many other styles of art work .
Possibly even these masters dyeing and not being able to pass on their knowledge to apprentices .
I also cant help but wonder if maybe for a time this type of work became scarce do to the very reasoning that many of you are suggesting . Its just to time consuming . Cost would also be a factor because very few could afford to purchase such a piece opting for lesser less time consuming styles . I would think however Pneumatics could bring this back or at least portions of it back .
We I think are very lucky in that people Like Dr Lenk , Pope , Hanson and others have documented some of these works . While the plates most certainly can give us an idea of the detail they simply cant do justice to the Final works themselves

RussB
03-15-2008, 09:21 AM
Its just to time consuming . Cost would also be a factor because very few could afford to purchase such a piece opting for lesser less time consuming styles....

If the artist puts a value on his time, it can be no other way, in my opinion.

Russ...

charles starks
03-15-2008, 09:23 AM
again thank you for you posts folks .


Thanks Charles for your answer //

Another question never have done any engraving // What is the difference between a chase and a push graver I assume the obvious with push and would think the other is used in a pull fashion???

Well a simple description is
push graving is done with a graver held in the palm of the hand thus pushing the graver through the material sometimes turning the material into the graver .
Chase graving is basically where using a chase hammer you tap the end of the graver , pushing it through the material .

Folks sometimes use both methods in their works , using the chase method for heavier work and the push method for most time lighter work .
Most certainly both methods can do both light and heavy work , its all dependant on the tools used

Nether method is push pull , its all done in a forward action changing the angle or direction you attack the material at .. One derection for the outside of a scroll , another for the inside , so on and so forth .
If you take a look at Mr Lindsay’s short video clips , you will see him turn is vice . Attacking the works from different directions depending of what areas he may be working on .

Now again , I am no where near being an accomplished engraver so if im wrong in my descriptions or nomenclature. Please correct me .
I have ask some other very accomplished artisans to come and see Mr Lindsay’s site and all you folks work posted here , as well as this tool because frankly I don’t think outside of main stream engraving circles , its well known.

This is also why I posted this subject as I look at it very much in the same way as the rifles I and others make .
If we don’t pass on our knowledge in these areas , even if its just rudimentary knowledge, because of a fear of losing something in the process , then eventually the amount of folks who can do this work. Again be it rifle making , engraving , jewelry, different disciplines in oil painting or what have you . Then those disciplines begin to die off and we lose the capability and understanding of such works and can only stand back an look with amazement at the finished products that people in the past were capable of doing

Maybe this is what happened to this style of engraving and relief work we are discussing .
While we assume that it stopped because of a change in habits or preferences, I think it could also have been from overly guarding of the processes needed to accomplish it

charles starks
03-15-2008, 11:31 AM
Zernike
im still looking for that book from the tower of london but in the main time here is some plates . this is an online resource called BibliOdyssey
under
Ornamental Decoration in 17th Century France
this link will take you right to it
http://bibliodyssey.blogspot.com/2007/07/ornamental-decoration-in-17th-century.html

now these two scroll works i have done in wood on rifle stocks many years back

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/lepautre2Bwall2Bornament2B17th2Bcen.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/lepautre2B17th2Bcentury2Bornament.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/lepautre2B17th2Bcentury2Bdecoration.jpg

i believe these are done by Jean Le Pautre in the 1600 . now many of these on the web site are chiseling’s but i have also seen them on metal works .
the relief work is very similar

charles starks
03-15-2008, 11:44 AM
you also might enjoy this book . its the one i was thinking of from the tower of london but i may be confussed about that . its the one on my library list that i know i lost .

BRITISH GUN ENGRAVING, A HISTORIC AND PHOTOGRAPHIC RECORD OF THE FINEST BRITISH GUN ENGRAVERS OF THE LAST TWO CENTURIES, TRADE E Tate, Douglas.

2000. 274pp, 300 color illus., 10.875x8.5, Volume 8 in Safari Press's Sporting Firearms Series, shows examples of most opulent examples of British gun engraving in existence from Europe & USA; traces the traditions of British gun engraving from end of 18th century to today, shows how national styles (both English & Scottish) changed over time from conservative Victorian era to 20th century; chronicles Celtic engraving by Scottish makers, influence of Arts & Crafts movement, & significance of Indian maharajas on British gun ornamentation; comprehensive list of British engravers with examples of their work

Tom McArdle
03-15-2008, 02:50 PM
Well, I'm gonna go contrarian here...

First of all, keep in mind those plates are illustrations, not photographs. Those engravings were done on flat plates, and then prints were taken from them. The fine banknote engraving is very impressive, but the photos of actual guns I have seen are not quite as exquisite. Now, I have not seen the guns in person, so I could be wrong.

Monte Mandarino has done some high relief work. other than the background not being fully bright in the examples I have seen, it is every bit as good quality wise, if not in the quantity of decoration, as was done in the periods you have mentioned.

The relief work I have seen photos of by Alain Lovenberg are stunning. other than the background not being polished bright, which i believe, at that point, is a matter of time and patience, (and hence, the customers wallet!) , not skill. If you add the fact that his scenery(bulino) exceeds what i have seen from earlier centuries in quality, and that his gold work is impeccable, I would rate his work as good as or even as superior to ages past, so far as I have seen it. There are others too.

Looking again at Monte Mandarino's work again, you could contend that the artistic quality of his design is superior to many of the older days, and that his execution does not fall short.

In fact, looking at "decorated Firearms", very few of the examples there are perfectly beautiful to my eyes. many have design flaws, but tastes may change too. I am a brutal critic of design, especially of my own!

Check out the sculpting of the Brown brothers too. There is an example in "Steel Canvass".

In my opinion, the top engravers of our day would be welcome in the circles of the best engravers that history has ever recorded works for us to examine.

I also wonder how much of the background polishing was done by specialists? Those ornate guns often had very many hands involved in their creation. If you took the best stone setters, gold smiths, engravers, carvers, polishers, stockmakers, and gunsmiths of today, and gave them the patronage that such conglomerations of artists had in the past, i think you would get superior results today.

perhaps the biggest factor is that decorated firearms, although in demand today, are perhaps not the choice of as much of the royalty as they once were. Also, maybe the revival of this particular style awaits someone to actually do it to the ultimate degree?

A great discussion, but again, many of the best engravers we have ever known about, in my opinion, are living today. To address your other point, does the airgraver help in quality, and or speed? I would say yes to both, in the right hands.

I have had the opportunity where I work to see some superb engraving as the guns come in for coloring or bluing, and I sometimes take them back to my scope. Anything that can be done with the airgraver can be done with traditional tools, but the airgraver does allow some advantages in control, and efficiency. However, there are times when the hammer can hog things out faster, but that may be just my own comfort level. That is part of the problem in evaluating this question. It is impossible for the same person to start from the beginning on both systems!

Hopefully, this will stir the pot some more. Sometimes, i think we over romanticize the past. We should respect it, and learn from it, bot not act as if their achievements are beyond us.

When i first started teaching high school drummers, after my own graduation, there were many prejudices about what was appropriate music for a high school drumline. i refused to accept those limits, and did not try to impress or intimidate my students with all the talk of what they would not be able to do. Instead, i found their own strengths, scored the music accordingly, and just taught it to them. After they learned it, I then told them how hard it was, and how well they achieved things that many others were afraid to try.

Many years later, the standards are much higher, and the accepted norms have risen in that activity, and by no means do i claim to be responsible for that growth. I merely want to illustrate how important it is to not believe all the propaganda. I was pretty well convinced that back in those days, we were overly criticized and more strictly judged than others, because we were trying harder stuff, poking our heads up above the trench line, so to speak. I came to believe that, at some subconscious level, perhaps, the judges (many of them band directors themselves)y did not want to reward that effort, or else they would be eventually forced to match it!

pay due homage to the great ones of yesterday, and today, but don't believe that what they do is impossible for you. The only limits we have are normally the ones we put on ourselves, or accept from others.

I promise to stop accepting them! How about you?

take care,

Tom

charles starks
03-15-2008, 05:12 PM
graver tom
Good post .
i think your most correct that these are not actual plates , just drawing of those plates .
Thus only representations .
The other thing to remember is that many times there is a language difference between then and now . If one does a search on the internet for say period 17century engravings you get everything from paintings to stone carving , even wood carving and yes even gold leaf work on books . So I think we have to keep that in mind also .

Another thing concerning period works on what ever object , we have to remember those works are 1,2 and sometimes 3 hundred years old . What did they look like when new and un warn with time ?

Also I would have to agree with you on the points that sometimes the old masters simply did not hold to the reputations of today folks like Manton , Nock are perfect example. I have held some of their works and in some cases you have to wonder what the big deal is as many small unknown smiths today do work that far surpass the quality . However again these pieces were 200+ years old .

Sometimes also these are not engravings at all but castings .
Makers would do a engraving in wax then cast the part thus one engraving being used over and over again , each time with lesser quality then the original .

As to farming work out , yep happened and happened a lot . Thus instead of doing all the work ones self , one person would make the barrels , another make the locks . Once all was put together it would be sent to the engrave or jeweler for completion.
Steel canvas is a wonderful book to droll over . However it also makes my point , what happened to this period type of work .
Even they intricate work isn’t of this type . The period rifles of Armstrong and such which are shown also is American line work . don’t get me wrong its still wonderful but its not the type of early work we see Typically see earlier in Europe.
Hence the question why ? What changed why the move to light leaf and heavy scroll work from the heavily defined leafed scroll work of old .
We know why many of these works found here in the Americas was done on brass and silver over irons and steels .
That was basically because of crown laws forbidding the manufacture of iron parts and the equipment to manufacture said parts . Thus most of these weapons are mounted in brass and silver .
Could this also have been also applied to other arts ? , I don’t think we know

Again very good post and points well taken

Rainer
03-15-2008, 05:18 PM
Wow!!! You engraved all that stuff! Amazing:eek:
Rainer

charles starks
03-15-2008, 05:42 PM
no LMAO not i , i would be lucky to do the simplest and that would be a struggle

Zernike Au
03-15-2008, 06:19 PM
Thanks Charles, the infromations are great. All you show is my cup of coffee (opps, no, I don't like coffee!) my cup of tea! I have the book of British Gun, like it so much. I alway wonder if my previous life is from there, as I love all this kind of things so much!!! Iwant to learn more about scroll before I really cut my first scroll.....I don't like the book Steel canvas (don't be offense, just personal taste).

The early decorated pattern are found not only on guns, everyitem in their daily life, doorhandle, lock, window frame, mirror frame, furniture, even a spoon is fully decorated,......now such good stuff can be found in the gun trade and some in the jewelry trade, or art pieces for collectors only. The product trend is change, we are talking about simple, cheap, easy to manufacture, profit... No manufacturer will want to have a fully engraving mouse, or fully engraved keyboard, even the engraving is by molding.......live is changing.....the only chance I can enjoy the good and high quality of life of the ancient people is from this books they left to us....

The illustration show in all these books are wooden cut, told by my printing making friends.

Sorry a bit greedy, anymore source? I can have more questions......:lol:

Tom, great post, I enjoy reading it.

Zernike

ridjrunr
03-15-2008, 07:24 PM
Charles,You mentioned 16,17,18 centuries.I assume that is in referance to what the book as a whole covers.I am curious if the plate with the gargoyles is dated and what the gargoyles where displayed on.Guns,furniture,or does it not specify?Thank you ,ridjrunr

NevadaBlue
03-15-2008, 07:29 PM
Do you have the whole book scanned? What's the name of it? I would like to have a copy of that.

charles starks
03-15-2008, 07:42 PM
Dr Lenks book is all rifles . as such those are from rifles in his book
. The date for for that one says Thuraine and La Hollandous 1660
Zernike also hit on something that was I think important .
Our architecture changed as buildings were lost to fire and war , they seem to often times been rebuilt without the high levels of sculpting that the old building had .
Maybe if there is an architect amongst us he could better explain. this change.
He is also correct in that the furnishings also went through this . As a boy I remember we had a bath tub with large claws on it . Even our kitchen table had this . My grandmothers porcelain door knobs had printed scroll work . When they broke they got replaced with glass or brass knobs . I don’t know if anyone really thought about it , they just got changed

no navada , i dont but there is a link provided a page or so back where a reprint can be obtained
the name of the book i showed scans from on the first page is : The Flintlock : its origin and development.
BY Torsten Lenk
translated By G.A. Urquhart
edited by J.F Hayward

Beaverman
03-15-2008, 08:12 PM
Charles, can you recomend any other books for engraving a 17th century Hudson valley fowler?

puffer
03-15-2008, 09:34 PM
Chas. I, like you, am very interested in Muzzle Loading Firearms. It seems to me that the earlier guns were very often heavly engraved.Two possible reasons may have been the cost of guns & "statis."
As guns became more available to the "common person, then the heavly engraved ones were for "elite & presentation. An example was the engraved guns of Colt (see "Steel Canvas" by R.L.Wilson

Puffer

puffer
03-15-2008, 10:05 PM
Chas. The art of extravigant hand engraving did not "die out" in the late 1700s. I am a fan of Guns made by the Mortimer family. H.W.Mortimer was the gunsmith to the King ( George III ) & engraved several guns for him, himself. He also used Moses Brent. Here is a pic of Brent's work done for H.W.Mortimer ca 1794 http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/CRPPSOP3001.jpg ( this pic is from the back cover of "the Mortimer Gun Makers 1753-1923 by H.Lee Munson

His family ( Mortimer) was still doing heavly engraved guns into the 1840s

Puffer

puffer
03-15-2008, 10:16 PM
Here is a close up of the engraving ( front cover)http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/CRPPSOP3-2.jpg


Puffer

jbullard1
03-16-2008, 06:51 AM
Puffer
Where could a person see such guns as you posted
jb1

jbullard1
03-16-2008, 06:59 AM
Charles
How long would it take to do scroll engraving on a lock plate, side plate and tang of a mozzleloader

Halfdan
03-16-2008, 09:01 AM
I have to agree with the comments about the mindset regarding quality of 'then' versus 'now', as well as the idea that they had fewer distractions then. But also remember that the onlt adequate light then was daylight, thus limiting the time they could work on fine detail like this.

Would inlay and wire inlay work also be done by the engraver, or was that a separate discipline?

Regards,
Halfdan

charles starks
03-16-2008, 10:45 AM
WOW good morning fella's. lots of questions this mornig
Ok let me start with beaverman and say , sir I have seen your leather work and its exceptional . Your most correct , to often a vast majority of folks look and ask : how much do you charge , they when you tell them , thy shy away. Normally with my rifles I have around 300 hours from blank to completion . Adding engraving " which i no longer do ", carving , inlays .
Intricate patch boxes and such all adds to that time ..
So if you crunch the numbers , if I pay myself only 10.00 and hours, that comes to 3000 starting price . We also have to remember that 5-700 of that is in parts , so your actually making less the 10.00 and hour .Steve Zihn and I had this same talk , the other day while discussing the quality of work we were seeing from many folks.
But we also have to remember that what we do is art even though the rifles are functional. So I guess once you get a name and keep that name out there often times folks will pay just on that name regardless if the quality starts to wane.

But anyway to your question

Charles, can you recommend any other books for engraving a 17th century Hudson valley fowler?
This is a pretty big question when you think about it .
What type of engraving are you looking for , early period engraving , engraving specific to your HV fowler ?
See really you could engrave what ever you like on your fowler . Currently on this forum Zernike Au is doing a online course on Bulino engraving
I would seriously take a good look at what he is doing folks and follow along . it IMO would benefit all of us and expand our knowledge considerably . it would look wonderful on your piece .

However lets remember that concerning these rifles , there has been a very large move in the last 10 years or so to reproducing historically correct examples.
As such we run into a problem , especially concerning American fowlers like yours .
Simply put there is very little documentation on them .
Why ? Well as I alluded to above laws like the navigation act and later corn acts greatly stifled manufacturing in this country , pre Revolutionary war .
As such many of the examples we have today to look at are cobbled parts and pieces IE Ordinance weapons . Because of this they carry parts from any number of English , French, Spanish and German makers . So the engraving can very greatly just on the same rifle .

Those that don’t would carry simple “ I say simple as a comparision as there really isn’t anything simple about it “ but what is called line engraving . This doesn’t carry the high relief or shading of at that time more sophisticated shade and cut engraving of the European silversmiths .
American gun smiths had to do all the work and as such many times they were not learned engravers

Tom Grinslade recently came out with a very nice book documenting the American fowler
I believe its one of the finest studies of these weapons to date and shows the different engravings as well as carvings that are seen on these rifles .
So my recommendation if your looking for a correct period example is to study the fowlers presented in his book
FLINTLOCK FOWLERS: The First Guns Made in America
American Fowling Pieces from 1700-1820
By Tom Grinslade

Then start watching for the older books by Pope , Hanson , Shumway and Lindsay. Take a serious look at the engravings of their documentation and move from there .

Puffer , very good example, thank you for posting it .
Most certainly the art never died completely out , just as our learned colleague graver tom pointed out . Hopefully he will post some photos of the art work he described . Im sure we all would like to see that .

But on the examples you posted , this is really inlay work , not the deep relief work that we see documented 100 to 200 years before . Most certainly though they also did the intricate inlay as well
Here are a couple examples that Merrill Lindsay documented in his Book Great Guns :An Illustrated history of firearms
here are some exsamples

Massevaux Alsace dated 1646
Done in green and white stag horn and brass wire

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg13.jpg

An example done by Jean Hennequin dated and signed 1621

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg12.jpg

here are a couple examples of bone and mother of pearl inlay
first one from Cornelius Klett dated 1582 and the second of unknown origin done in 1600 with mother of pearl and brass wire . this piece has always fascinated me do to its intricacy

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg14.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg15.jpg


Charles
How long would it take to do scroll engraving on a lock plate, side plate and tang of a mozzleloader
well this would depend on first what work and who was doing it .
any of the folks here would do a fantastic job
but for me , right now , frankly ,And to put it bluntly
For me it takes a couple days to do a buttplate tang , barrel tang , and side plate .
My hands just are not what they used to be and its one of the reasons I stopped doing engraving some years back . Though I really enjoyed it , I just couldn’t do it correctly and was not satisfied with the end results. Which I had been prior to the effects of labor attacking my hands and back . Thus I have went to doing more castings and such .
That when I ran across this site while surfing the net for pneumatics thinking such tools might be the answer . Only time will tell . but untell i
solve my problem concerning this venue I will not suggest or provide the option of engravings on my finished products nor do I want to lead folks to believe I could do such work currently
So I read . Watch and learn from the folks here , who know what they are doing

I have to agree with the comments about the mindset regarding quality of 'then' versus 'now', as well as the idea that they had fewer distractions then. But also remember that the onlt adequate light then was daylight, thus limiting the time they could work on fine detail like this.

Would inlay and wire inlay work also be done by the engraver, or was that a separate discipline?

Regards,
Halfdan
Normally the inlay work would have been done by the same person or in at least the same shop.
Now as we discussed before , many times the engraving work , or other parts work like barrels , locks and such would have been farmed out to others who provided work in these specific trades .
However we also cannot forget that there were many masters “ I know that description offends some but IMO that’s what they were “
Did their own works from start to finish , making the locks , stock , forging barrels and doing the engravings . These were truly knowable folks and while they my have been less skilled in one are then another , their overall work is truly something to behold when you consider it as a whole .
To often I think we forget that . We concentrate so much on one given area that we lose the overall prospective and relationship of the work itself .

I sincerely hope you all look over this site very well . Take a real good look at what others here are doing , describing and see their skill . Participate in the other topics . There is so much here that we all can apply to our works . The quality of work here by folks is simply out standing .
Their knowledge at least for me is overwhelming to say the least

Don Hanson
03-16-2008, 11:00 AM
You do some grate work. Did you lern by book or have some hads on help when you ferst startid?

HankinWV
03-16-2008, 11:02 AM
It would seem to me that the cost of engraving on top of the price of the rifle would put it out of the realm of most people. Even at minimum wage.

charles starks
03-16-2008, 11:21 AM
You do some grate work. Did you lern by book or have some hads on help when you ferst startid?

Don again these are not my works of engraving , they are examples of very old engravings .
you want to see work , go to the photo section of this forum and see the work that the folks here do .
frankly im just a new comers to this place , simply a Johnny come lately.
The true artists are those doing the actual engraving plates , knives , jeweler and such here . My hope is that for right now I can contribute something , bring people to this site so they can see the work they do
Hopefully they will realize they can learn from these folks and possible try something that they may have always wanted to do but just never knew how

my work when i was doing it was simple period "late 1700 and early 1800 American line work “
Again I don’t want to and will not embarrass myself by showing it .
My engraving has never been more then just scratching IMO
I also learned what little I know about how to perform a small amount of engraving , by looking and reading books .
My gun work is from the same way but i have been doing it for some 30 + years now . while i think i still have alot to learn , it seems im at a level thats acceptable to many folks

Hank I would also agree with you . However in this day and age where I see period reproduction rifles , in very simple form selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Paintings that frankly I would give 10 bucks for , selling for thousands to hundreds of thousands , I have to wonder . Surly a skilled artesian producing a product , while well out of the reach of the common folk . Would find that there would be a market for this type of work ?

Right now just with traditional muzzleloading rifles there is a vast majority of folks that simply feel they cant afford a custom rifle made from quality parts when they can buy a production version for 3-400 that’s lacking in most every way .
BUT at the same time those of us that make custom pieces are so far behind , we often have back logs of at least a year for delivery of a completed piece . Currently im alittle over a year behind and my rifels and shot guns range from 800-2500 depending on options .
Steve Zihn was telling me he has slowed on taking orders because he is 3 years back . Now mind you his quality is IMO in the top 5 % in this country and his prices reflect that .

This makes me wonder just how much cost is really a factor . Sure for most of us it is . However for a vast amount of folks , it doesn’t seem to play as great an issue

puffer
03-16-2008, 12:34 PM
Puffer
Where could a person see such guns as you posted
jb1
Here are some thoughts
1.See physically - Museums (the Met. in NY has some great eexamples.)http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/untitled-2.jpg (1804 French fowler) Gun dealer's show rooms (the 2 pistols were on display & Holland & Holland ) Antique gun actions - Privite collections (in Europe, often in castles)

2.Books

3. On line ( Check Auction sites ) Google the "gun Maker (Le Page, Egg, Mortimer etc.)

Puffer

puffer
03-16-2008, 01:26 PM
Normally the inlay work would have been done by the same person or in at least the same shop.
Now as we discussed before , many times the engraving work , or other parts work like barrels , locks and such would have been farmed out to others who provided work in these specific trades .
However we also cannot forget that there were many masters “ I know that description offends some but IMO that’s what they were “
Did their own works from start to finish , making the locks , stock , forging barrels and doing the engravings . These were truly knowable folks and while they my have been less skilled in one are then another , their overall work is truly something to behold when you consider it as a whole .
To often I think we forget that . We concentrate so much on one given area that we lose the overall prospective and relationship of the work itself .

Chas. As you know, what little I know on this subject, is focused on British gun makers. But here are some thoughts.
There were basically 2 types of gun makers (IMHO)
1. General gun makers - these gun makers made guns for general consumption & the military, such as Ketland( although they did do some "custom work) These makers "farmed out there parts & assembled them ( there was a huge # (up to 8,000- 10,000 in London & Birmingham) of "parts makers, including "engravers"
2. Fine Gun Makers.( such as Egg, Forbes, Mortimer, Twigg etc) These gun makers Primarily ( note Egg + others did do Military work) made guns for the "better" classes (incl. kings etc) These makers primarly kept their work "in house" Either doing all of it themselves or using their apprentices (often family members, many apprentices went on to become "fine Gun Makers." ( Note - Both Egg & Mortimer used Moses Brent, who was a Master engraver & was also known for his Gold & siver "castings ( inlay work ??))

I will post some pics of the more simple ingraving these makers did.

Puffer

Halfdan
03-16-2008, 01:29 PM
I look at these engraved guns, and they are truly beautiful, but were they made to be used or more for the art? Does all the engraving make it hard to keep the metal clean and rust-free? Seems like it would.

Gobbler
03-16-2008, 02:15 PM
I would also ask the same question as halfdan. Although they are beutiful works of art it seems not very practical (IMO) and would tend to be if you will wall hangers.

Do you suppose these old works of art were ever even fired?

I know there was alot of engraving done on firearms that were used on a regular basis, but I referring to guns such as puffer posted. What do you think?

puffer
03-16-2008, 02:45 PM
I would also ask the same question as halfdan. Although they are beutiful works of art it seems not very practical (IMO) and would tend to be if you will wall hangers.

Do you suppose these old works of art were ever even fired?

I know there was alot of engraving done on firearms that were used on a regular basis, but I referring to guns such as puffer posted. What do you think?
The pistol I showed was a "wall hanger" ( made for presentation to the Bey of Tunis ) But remember, these "ornate guns", were bought by the "gentry" & were a sign of pride & their wealth. This 1610 French flintlock is reported to have been the "sporting arm" of one such person.
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/showimage.jpg Also, there are numerouse references to The gentlemen (Like the king William III & George III), getting together & having shooting matchs witheir "fine guns"

Remember the Ornate swords these guys carried into the field. Or better yet, those "ornate" Pen/KYs ("richly carved" IMHO = wall hangers
Note- Wait until you see the "scots pistols" (they were used - example- The 1st shot in the Rev. war, was fired from an ornate scots pistol.)

Puffer

charles starks
03-16-2008, 04:43 PM
i think puffer is correct , many times these works were simply show pieces . However other times they were used . Pop documents many examples of highly ornate wheel locks that show the corrosion and patina of use .
Also many time these were weapons specifically done for royalty others not . Most certainly as he said they probably were not weapons for the common man though through time they found their way into the hands of the common people .
Puffer would you have any documentation of celtic type engravings done or period weapons ?

puffer
03-16-2008, 06:00 PM
i think puffer is correct , many times these works were simply show pieces . However other times they were used . Pop documents many examples of highly ornate wheel locks that show the corrosion and patina of use .
Also many time these were weapons specifically done for royalty others not . Most certainly as he said they probably were not weapons for the common man though through time they found their way into the hands of the common people .
Puffer would you have any documentation of celtic type engravings done or period weapons ?

YES. I am currently working on gettting the material together. I will post, but tell a certain "rotun exmarine" that they are not "pimp" guns.:willy_nilly: :willy_nilly:

Puffer

puffer
03-16-2008, 06:13 PM
As I mentioned before,, the "fine Gun Makers in Britan, did most of their engraving in house.According to my resourses, most of their guns had at least some engraving. Here are some pics of engraving on some of their plainer pistols.

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/Untitled-1a-1.jpg

here are my favorite 2 lock & lock plates
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/Untitled-1-2.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/gastinne205l.jpg
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/lang05l.jpg
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/lepage05l.jpg
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/mort05l.jpg

Puffer

Gobbler
03-16-2008, 07:21 PM
Puffer

Thanks for the info // The pictures that you last posted IMO are ones that would have been used and very well done//still not a common mans gun but most certainly one I belive would have been seen and used on a regular basis.

Gobbler
03-16-2008, 07:40 PM
Do you think that you see more engraving in the 18th century on fowling guns rather than a rifle or perhaps more on pistols // Just my observation but it seems to me I see more fowling pieces // much like more modern times and today like on shotguns // just an opinion what do you think?

puffer
03-16-2008, 07:54 PM
Puffer

Thanks for the info // The pictures that you last posted IMO are ones that would have been used and very well done//still not a common mans gun but most certainly one I belive would have been seen and used on a regular basis.

If you are referring to the last post i made, then here are some thoughts.
1. yes, these examples are from the "finer gun makers" = Egg, Forbes, Mortimer etc. as opposed to ketland,Wilson etc.
2. But what is a "common man" ?? You may recall that David Thompson ( a surveyor, Northwest Co. explorer , map maker etc. Mid income ) carried a pair of Mortimers pistols. Also it is documented that the Amer. fur Traders were familiar with Manton's rifles (another "fine gun maker") In fact at least one was @ a rendezvous, carried by a Brit.)

Puffer

Gobbler
03-16-2008, 08:03 PM
Good points Puffer
I guess it does depend on your interpretation of Common Man

What do think a Scotsman would have had for engraving in the mid to late
1700's
after he had been in the country for a bit // Just my guess but he probably didn't have much when he first came over and hit the ground.

puffer
03-16-2008, 08:23 PM
Good points Puffer
I guess it does depend on your interpretation of Common Man

What do think a Scotsman would have had for engraving in the mid to late
1700's
after he had been in the country for a bit // Just my guess but he probably didn't have much when he first came over and hit the ground.

Great ??

I do know that a "scots dog lock" was found @ Jamestown VA (dated 1607)

But did any "Scots" engravers come over ?? If so what "pattern guns did they make ?? I do not Know. My "assumption" is that if they did come over, they practiced their trate making "local" guns.

Puffer

charles starks
03-16-2008, 08:33 PM
ok so lets keep this all tied together here fellas which i think we are doing .
do you all think that this heavy ornamentation slowed down because of guarding of secrets or was it simply change .

if i get the jest of what your getting at here puffer is that maybe the move came about as gunsmiths started losing the ability to do this engraving . or is it maybe because they slowly moved to providing simpler works for the common person ?

How about the laws passed by the crown in the 18th century , did they have an effect you think ?

Ray Cover
03-16-2008, 09:06 PM
I tell you guys this has been a great thread. :hurray: The historical stuff is beyond my area of expertise so I really can't participate much but I have loved the pics and it has been a very good read.:thumbsup:

Ry

puffer
03-16-2008, 09:19 PM
ok so lets keep this all tied together here fellas which i think we are doing .
do you all think that this heavy ornamentation slowed down because of guarding of secrets or was it simply change .
How about the laws passed by the crown in the 18th century , did they have an effect you think ?

IMHO, as we trace the engraving, VIA the examples posted, we see a decrease in the "heavy ornamentation" not because of "guarding secrets" BUT because of 2 factors.
1. The guns themselves. -- The "early guns" were LARGE to say the least. Therefore they offered the engraver a a larger canvas to work with. As the guns became more diminutive, the decoration followed suite. ( imagine an 19th centry dueling pistol or sporting rifle, or fowler, with the type of engraving you first posted ???? Even with the "ornate" guns I posted, we see inlays & finer engravings.
2. Personal taste availability & usage.-- Originally guns were a "rarety" & EXPENSIVE & very few had them.As the guns developed & their usage became more "common" the engraving became more "practical" Even the "bey of Tunis' gun I showed could be carred & used.

IMHO, THE HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT of the GUNS & the DECORATION of GUNS CAN NOT BE SEPERATED !!!!

Puffer

Gobbler
03-16-2008, 10:14 PM
Puffer / Anyone
Do you think the more ornate engravers were in Europe // Did they make the trip to the New World??? or did we begin to loose the really ornate and begin with simpler engraving as more movement happened in the Colonies.
I know we had fine gun makers who engraved but could they have started to become less ornate and more affordable to compensate lack of retail customers (so to speak) and increasing makers coming in. In other words put what they need and could afford (in the hands of the few) rather than what they wanted and could not?

charles starks
03-17-2008, 07:26 AM
you know i was thinking about this last night and i realized something here .
do not many of the Asian countries still do this heavy type of relief work ?
I seem to recall while in the army seeing a lot of items done this way both in silver and such for sale by street merchants .
The Philippines and Korea come to mind .
I do remember the Buddhist temple where my wife and I were married had some very heavy open type works in a lot of different metals as well as wood with large amounts of inlay work and seen depictions
I seem to recall this work quite common there among artisans.
Did these peoples not go through something that Europeans did ?

I think maybe your on the right track in what you say puffer but I also wonder this .
During the times of this type of work . What was happening ?
Spain , France , England in fact most of Europe was in some stage of war .
History has showed us that during these time technologies often advance but the arts lose ground .
In times of relative peace this turns the opposite direction.
Could we not be sing the effects of this as these weapons makers turn to making more military works over highly decorated pieces ?.
Later we have the French revolution during which a lot of anything concerning autocracy or items showing a person status as more wealthy then another was destroyed as I understand it even frowned upon being produced .
Did not Russia go through much the same change during the communist revolution ?

Surly when the revival of the arts did happen , as it always does , would it not come back changed , losing something from the past but creating a different interpretation of the mind set at the time ?
now these are later reproductions and castings but . from what i understand especially during the late 17th century and well through to the French revolution, even the smallest items like snuff boxes would have been highly relief engraved . so doesnt this negate the size issue ?
thoughts ?

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/6466-iID_3_950x712.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/6466-iID_1_950x713.jpg


take a look at this rare 19th century Napoleon III jewelry cascet with four thick beveled sides set in a decorated gilt frame. On top there is a large micromosaic richly decorated with white daisies on a turquoise ground. The item is originated in France and dated second half of the 19th century. The box is in excellent condition with no tesserae missing and the interior tufted satin is original. Micromosaic : Length: 10cm Width: 10cm Height: of the box: 9cm
we may lose this link so look fast .
but if you look at the bottom and then the overall presentation its maybe a transition peice of old styles and the biging of the newwer scroll work we see so often today
http://www.rubylane.com/shops/chateau/item/080

SAWMA
03-17-2008, 01:08 PM
This elaborate or excessively done engraving does nothing for me. Would you know of any illustrations of 18th century period styling that might be considered "simple" in design. Thanks!

puffer
03-17-2008, 05:31 PM
Although tis is not engraving, I thought you all, might like to see this lock. It was made in the ealy 1600s for a German matchlock sporting rifle ( yes Gobbler these guns were used to hunt with )

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/103_Z.jpg

Puffer

puffer
03-17-2008, 06:19 PM
I tell you guys this has been a great thread. :hurray: The historical stuff is beyond my area of expertise so I really can't participate much but I have loved the pics and it has been a very good read.:thumbsup:

Ry

Ray, Perhaps you could be of some help, at least to me.

This Thread has been an eye opener to me.For years, I have seen the beautiful engraving done on muzzle loading guns. ( even have collected a few pics etc of the "ornate ones) just for the enjoyment of the ART.

But I have realized 2 things (even @ my advanced age, I still can learn.)

Here is how I, personally, would like your imput. ( plus any other engravers on the forum )

1. Engraving is an ART. :whoo: I have "lurked" in other sections of the forum & I have REALY come to appreciate the work & ability it takes.
As I have been researching, I have seen on the earlier guns, engraving,casting, sheet work etc. Could you please point out ( on the examples I have posted {& others I will post} what is what ???

2. For this thread, I am putting together a series of posts, featuring the Scotish Pistols. The reason being, that these guns, until the mid-late 1800s, were engraved (some lavishly) And IMHO gives us an example of the transition fron the very ornate to the more "simple"
Here is my problem -
a. The engraving & decoaration, is one of the ways a gun is dated & authenticated as being made by a Scotish gun maker (ep. the early ones) But I keep running accros the terms - German style, mid-European style etc. At any given date what were these "STYLES"??? I also keep running into "patterns ( running foiage,pllmette leaves, rosettes,romanesque etc.

As I post the guns, can you (or others) assist in clarifing ??

Puffer

Gravy
03-17-2008, 07:58 PM
I'm very partial to British flintlocks and Scottish examples are really quite unique.

Some of these links are probably familiar to you, but hopefully you'll gain some use from others:

Scottish firearms (http://www.scotwars.com/html/equip_firearms.htm)
Scottish dueling pistols (http://www.the-clann.co.uk/Pistols/pistols1.htm)
a Highland pistol (http://www.militaryheritage.com/pistol2.htm)
Arms and Armour at Glasgow Museums (http://www.glasgowmuseums.com/showExhibition.cfm?venueid=0&itemid=74&Showid=52&slideid=36)
various books of Scottish arms (http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_books_scot.html)
Marischal Virtual Museum (http://www.abdn.ac.uk/virtualmuseum/index.php?page=object_detail&prefix=ABDUA&num=18040&firstview=true&mt=&sign=&viewnumber=&resultsperpage=9)
Scottish steel pistol c. 1750 (http://www.bolis.com/gallery/album04)
cased pair of Scottish dueling pistols c. 1800 (http://www.aaawt.com/html/firearms/f136.html)
the National Firearms Museum (http://www.nationalfirearmsmuseum.org/tour/default.asp) (American)

Beaverman
03-17-2008, 08:44 PM
Charles, do you know what percentage of the engraving that smiths do today is by hand or pnuematic?

charles starks
03-17-2008, 08:54 PM
puffer ,Please lets be sure to keep things tied in here on the discussion and how it relates to the change . Everything needs to relate to the original topic at hand in some way . IE what changed , how it changed and opinions or questions as to why .
did this type of engraving simple decline to only a few people doing it OR did it naturally turn to something else . if so what . what was the evolution . can we show that transition, can we document it . Did all the European engravings go through this change or was it simply American artists

beaverman .
I would say probably about 50 , 50 many folks clearly use Pneumatics , others strictly frown on it as not being correct for what we do . However my take is that only a very learned person can tell the difference

been a very long day fellas , sorry for being so blunt,

Tom McArdle
03-17-2008, 09:07 PM
Whether pneumatic tools are used or not, it is considered "by hand". The hand guides the tool without any help or direction. If someone were to build a flintlock rifle from a blank, but used a band saw to rough out the blank, would it no longer be "hand" made?

Just to clarify, a powered engraving tool is not a machine, as i define the term. An engraving machine, or machine engraving itself, would be the device or process where a pre formatted template or set of instructions causes a device to automatically produce a certain output. The operator may have varying degrees of involvement in the process, but the defining difference is the guidance or automatic control provided by the device. Actually, you could argue that machine engraving is not engraving at all. The pantograph machines actually do not remove metal, but displace, or scratch the metal, producing a mark that becomes part of a design. lasers burn, they do not cut, and even the output of rotating cutter type machines might be more properly called "machining" as opposed to engraving.

Do powered tools give some advantage? yes, that is why many of us use them. Do they transform what we do so that it is no longer "hand" engraving? Absolutely not.

Just a point of information!

:window:

take care,

Tom

PS I'll try and help identify whatever types of work i can. For example, those pictures of the mirrors posted above would represent repousse, not engraving. Or perhaps some sort of die forming process was used. The engraving would have been on the dies themselves. The monogram on the one would be engraving.

That is AFAIK, anyway.

Tom

charles starks
03-17-2008, 09:08 PM
This elaborate or excessively done engraving does nothing for me. Would you know of any illustrations of 18th century period styling that might be considered "simple" in design. Thanks!
yes most American done engraving of 18th century, concerning firearms is rather simple and not so over whelming.
Basically that’s the change we are talking about here . Why the change from what is being shown to works that are more like this

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/aae-254_1.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/DSC08473.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/DSC08480.jpg

John Armstrong was know for being extravagant in his building then many of the other American smiths of the time frame
as you can see there was a drastic change that seemed to happen rather suddenly

PS I'll try and help identify whatever types of work i can. For example, those pictures of the mirrors posted above would represent repousse, not engraving. Or perhaps some sort of die forming process was used. The engraving would have been on the dies themselves. The monogram on the one would be engraving.

i would believe they would be castings tom. Most likely of original relief works .
But still castings all the same . They are20 century copies of 18th century works .
while they clearly are not engravings , they are castings .
the reason i posted them was to suggest that maybe there was a tendency to say why pay for actual engravings when it was much cheaper to cast of of an original ?
could this be part of the decline of heavy relief works ? i don’t know , thats what were discussing .
there is literally thousands of different things that happened in this time period that i believe probably caused this change and is still reflected in today’s works

As to Pneumatics . The point isn’t whether the engraving is still done by hand or not but more to if it is done correctly .
Continues blade saws , long blade , saws even wheel saws would still be correct . But if you got tight down to the nit of it , it would be the power source that wouldn’t be correct as we use electricity and the original type mill saws used water power OR in some cases treadle power or recoils of iron or wood to create the power to turn the tools such as with original period wood laths.
Many folks do use simply coping saws to cut the blanks . Others like myself use a band saw to cut a plank but then only use rasps , files , gouges and chisels from there forward .
The use of a dermal tool or rotary tool for carving is frowned on by many folks to include myself . it’s a very good way to mess up a build. don’t get me wrong , they have there place , just not on the same table as the rifle .
What I am getting at however is that there is a level of gunsmith that builds these rifles today that do them exactly the same way as 200 years ago . Right down to forging their own Iron barrels and locks to using brace and bits and only hand tools , no electronics what so ever . Some go so far as to have no power tools at all within their shops.
Fopr some its not enough to be made by hand , it must truly be made by a historical correct hand

Tom McArdle
03-17-2008, 09:49 PM
yes most American done engraving of 18th century, concerning firearms is rather simple and not so over whelming.
Basically that’s the change we are talking about here . Why the change from what is being shown to works that are more like this


as you can see there was a drastic change that seemed to happen rather suddenly

If that is really the question, then the answer seems rather simple to me. The best, most established artisans did not emigrate to the new world. They had no need to. Now, certain folks did come over for religious reasons, but most of the most talented artisans stayed in Europe, where the money to finance the more ornate works was available. That is the other reason for the greatly lessened degree of ornateness and quality on arms assembled over here.There were wealthy residents of the new world, but the royal patronage and local concentrations of wealth that existed in Europe were just not found here for quite a long time into our country's history.

As an engraver,I have seen very few American engravings that even approached the quality found on the best contemporary European work. In my limited experience, the best decorative work being done in early America was on silver or furniture. Even in the days of Nimshcke and Young, the best engraving in the world was being done in Europe. Until very recently, the quality of engraving done in the US could not compare very well with the best European work.

I am an opinionated curmudgeon, but my experience has shown that most gun writers know very little about the difference between varying degrees of quality in the engravings they write about.

If someone likes what they see, that is great. But it does not necessarily mean that the work is well designed, or even well executed.

This book-
http://www.amazon.com/Gunmaking-Double-Shotguns-Steven-Hughes/dp/0873416015/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205811007&sr=1-1

has a couple of great chapters on engraving, that will help you learn how to evaluate what you see better. There are some great photos of some of Winston Churchill's work in that volume as well.

Also, Ron Smith's first book on scroll design

http://www.contenti.com/products/books/116-614.html

can be of great help in that department also. It is a more thorough treatment of the subject.

The early American artisans , in my opinion, were more praiseworthy for their persistence and resourcefulness, not the absolute quality of their work. Their work is sometimes very beautiful, and often the European work, to my eyes, could be grossly overdone, and not beautiful at all. However, generally speaking, we are talking about two different worlds.

To simplify it, I see two basic reasons for the "sudden decline" in the quality of engraving, which really is not a decline at all. What we see, I believe, is more average quality artisans getting their work noticed and appreciated, because they did not have the competition over here,from the very best that were still in Europe, and the fact that we Americans have taken more note of them, because they are our artisans! Their work stood out on a rugged frontier, and in a provincial society, in a way they would not have stood out in London, Berlin, or Paris, just to name a few places of note.

The early American engraver was either not capable of producing the quality of work that was being done by the best in Europe, or he did not have the patrons who were wiling or able to pay for it.

take care,

Tom

charles starks
03-17-2008, 09:57 PM
good post tom , surly something to think on :lurk5:

Tom McArdle
03-17-2008, 10:00 PM
Historically correct? That is a can of worms!:willy_nilly: :eek: :lurk5: :lol: :cheers2:

Anyway, according to Peter Alexander, most gun makers were stocking guns, using barrels, locks, and sometimes even furniture imported from Europe, or produced by specialists here. Sometimes, as in Salem NC, the engraving may have been done by a local specialist, ie. John Vogler.

Everyone has their own threshold, and i respect that. There are so may ways we really cannot duplicate the conditions those guns were produced in, and there are so many things we don't know that we don't know about.

Anyway, I respect and applaud your efforts, and those like you.

certainly a great discussion you started! If you do win the tool, please do post some pictures of your work, when you feel comfortable doing so.

take care,

Tom

Tom McArdle
03-17-2008, 10:04 PM
BTW, if those forms you showed were solid, casting would fit. if they are hollow, i would think the were formed in dies out of thin sheet. Much more economical, but then again, i don't know much about those things. The few combs and mirrors i have engraved were very very thin. I can't imagine that they were cast.

Tom

Gobbler
03-17-2008, 10:09 PM
If that is really the question, then the answer seems rather simple to me. The best, most established artisans did not emigrate to the new world. They had no need to. Now, certain folks did come over for religious reasons, but most of the most talented artisans stayed in Europe, where the money to finance the more ornate works was available. That is the other reason for the greatly lessened degree of ornateness and quality on arms assembled over here.There were wealthy residents of the new world, but the royal patronage and local concentrations of wealth that existed in Europe were just not found here for quite a long time into our country's history.

The early American engraver was either not capable of producing the quality of work that was being done by the best in Europe, or he did not have the patrons who were wiling or able to pay for it.

As Tom said above
This was the question I posed in my earlier thread that he answered
but I'm wondering does anyone else think that why
It is Tom's thoughts but I was just posing a theory
What do think? Was it disposable income or did those makers/Engravers stay in Europe? Anyone have any links to reference makers coming over ?
Don't want to beat this to death but just wondering
Thanks

charles starks
03-17-2008, 10:12 PM
im sorry tom i missed this part again its been a very long day

If that is really the question, then the answer seems rather simple to me

the question i posted at least for me is about all the change . how did we get to where we are today , what was the progression of change .
i think all these comparison being shown , are actually leading us down that path of trying to figure this out .
i think the answer can be very simply but as often the case , the simple answer has allot of context to it .

myself i dont see how we can try to understand this topic without also understanding the different venues of period engraving or other arts which happened at the same time . as we look at these different photos of different time periods , i think we start to see how it all ties together to show a progression of change
Maybe what we are seeing is a refinement of that art over a short 100 to 150 year timeframe .
But if that’s the case then why have we not seen this same refinement over the last 150 years as America became one of the wealthiest nations in the world ?

Tom McArdle
03-18-2008, 04:48 AM
im sorry tom i missed this part again its been a very long day



the question i posted at least for me is about all the change . how did we get to where we are today , what was the progression of change .
i think all these comparison being shown , are actually leading us down that path of trying to figure this out .
i think the answer can be very simply but as often the case , the simple answer has allot of context to it .

myself i dont see how we can try to understand this topic without also understanding the different venues of period engraving or other arts which happened at the same time . as we look at these different photos of different time periods , i think we start to see how it all ties together to show a progression of change
Maybe what we are seeing is a refinement of that art over a short 100 to 150 year timeframe .
But if that’s the case then why have we not seen this same refinement over the last 150 years as America became one of the wealthiest nations in the world ?

I've pretty much been at the very edge of my own very limited knowledge on this whole topic. A very in depth doctoral thesis could have a field day on this topic, and would be well worth writing, but it is far beyond me!

In terms of history and depth of tradition, we may never equal Europe. If Beretta stays in existence, we will never have a company in our country with that much longevity.

maybe we are finally catching up in the area of the engraving arts. Why has it taken so long? I don't know. maybe Americans generally like the look and feel of real wood more than the real thing?

Off to work now!

Tom

charles starks
03-18-2008, 07:58 AM
Tom, Casting is often done with cavities especially on larger pieces .
Any of the processes of sand casting , lost wax castings even lost mould casting can all provide such items

Ok here is what I think happened . Now this may be long so please read through as my writing gets worse the longer the post

We start of f in the 17th century , what was a commonality among most of the many of the European countries ?
Basically religion especially the catholic church .
We also have to add a class system with great separations between the lower , middle and upper classes.
Now we mix in the wars between France , Spain and England . Both being carried out before and after this time frame.
Now enter production and emigration to the new world IE the Americas and the vast wealth found there .
Now its easy to say that the colonies most likely didn’t have the skilled artisans that Europe had . However can we support this claim ?
I don’t know I think when we look at what was going on I have to wonder .
See concerning at least England , the parliament starting in the early 18th century became very concerned with the effects of colonial trade and production .
In just a short 100 time span , the American colonies had went from nothing to being one of the top 5 exporters of iron and iron products . The fear seems to be that it was effecting the English businesses and economy so greatly that they passed what is know as the navigation act . This forbid the production or the continued building of foundries to produce this new found wealth .
It also made the colonies use only British shipping companies which could only export to Britain itself .
Thus things like iron plow parts , gun parts , building material had to go to England and then be imported back . As I understand it ,This law even went so far as to outlaw the cutting of trees for the production of lumber and enter colonial trade of goods . Later in , if I recall 1750 came the corn act which went even further then the navigation act .

Now would these have completely stopped production ? No I think not but most certainly it did have an effect and slowed production of materials . Consider this where would silver smiths get their plates or raw materials if they cant build the foundries or milling equipment to make plate stock .

Now at the same time we also have to remember the main players in the new world were the same major powers as in Europe. France , Spain , England and the Dutch with they money and business recourses.

Spain early on in the 16th and 17 centuries was having its own domestic problems and couldn’t compete with England and France which resulted in them moving their area if influence south leaving England and France to eventually fight it out in a power struggle of the resources of this new country .
But in the end France also began to wane as domestic issues at home demanded more and more of their available recourses which in the sort of it produced the Napoleonic wars and the French revolution.

But we cant forget we also had our own revolution here with the country being greatly divided between patriots and Tories . Many of the families loyal to the British crown returned to England to escape the war . Those that did not became greatly chastised and their businesses targeted and confiscated .

Those companies and artisans that survived had to turn their production to supporting the colonial war effort .
Remember that at this time the colonies relied greatly on importations . But blockades greatly cut into the available resources coming into this country . Everything from cloth to fineries .

My take is that during this time the country turned to becoming self sufficient and the more extravagant arts naturally took a back seat to main stream production.
Most certainly we see some of these fineries survive after all silver smiths did a booming business both in the Indian trade and domestics . But who needs a highly ornately engraved work of art when a simple pot , bowl will do and be usable .
Fancier items could simply be imported .
We also have to I think take into account the mind set . The colonies were a troublesome place .
After the revolution , there had to be concerns as to the stability of government . Would the US hold on , would it grow , or would it crumble inward into more conflict .
If a person had lost a lot of their income prior to the revolution and during it , would they so quickly return to this country without the concern for the possibility of only facing this same issue again ?.

Now this all reverts back to religion and its effects on the situation . Religion was a very strong moving part of establishing immigration to this country . However the catholic church while having a somewhat strong influence early on , quickly waned in its power , never really achieving the prominence that it held in Europe for centuries .
My thought is that if Rome had achieved this same level , we would have seen the same influences in architectures that we see in Europe, those these depictions , stone workings , art works would maybe have became more for front in the daily lives of the people in this country which would I believe carried a more natural evolution to surroundings that people wanted comparisons to .

I think also this relates to what others like puffer have said . Many of these pieces related directly to status . Thus giving the wealthy a way to show off their wealth and higher status separating them in some small way from others .
This wasn’t I believe a very high ideal in this country . The people here had , had their fill of the crown , royalty and wealthy authority in general . I don’t think it would have been a good time to show of just how well off you were but in the most guarded of situations , within your home and among trusted folks .

As such would not this also have dealt a blow to folks who created such extravagant works ?
Sure there would be some who would specialize and hold on , but the would have to have refined their works greatly because there simply would not have been the demand here as there was in Europe.

But this area also to began to lose control as folks raised up against the ruling classes in Europe as well . The church was pushed out , its influence fell off . Valuable resources were funneled into war and supporting those wars . Thus people would have turned from the fineries of a life of ease to simply a life ..
I don’t think the world as a whole has ever really recovered from that 200 year period of time concerning the arts . We just don’t see the same type of works after as before .
I think possibly we see the same effect in the 20th century concerning the changes experience after WW1 and WW2 . Are our art works the same as before those to world wide events , not really .
So I don’t think we can say it’s a natural evolution but more of a forced change do to loss and domestic change

Well that what im thinking anyway , hope that made since . I think its easy to simply say well ,,, it just happened . Really though why did this happen , what caused this change to effect

Thoughts anyone

puffer
03-18-2008, 04:43 PM
puffer ,Please lets be sure to keep things tied in here on the discussion and how it relates to the change . Everything needs to relate to the original topic at hand in some way . IE what changed , how it changed and opinions or questions as to why .
did this type of engraving simple decline to only a few people doing it OR did it naturally turn to something else . if so what . what was the evolution . can we show that transition, can we document it . Did all the European engravings go through this change or was it simply American artists

,Chas. no need to apologize.:cheers2:

The reason I asked for assistance, was twofold.
1. to be able to understand what I was seeing
2. I wanted also to see if the changes in the " decorating" of guns, ran in tandem with the changes in those in other areas ( personal items,jewelry etc ), including motifs etc.

Puffer

charles starks
03-18-2008, 05:34 PM
thanks puffer i was having a very bad night

puffer
03-18-2008, 06:25 PM
[quote=Gravy]I'm very partial to British flintlocks and Scottish examples are really quite unique.

:cheers2: :highfive:

I feel that the Scots ( Highlander) pistols,as well as the earlier guns, that they owned, illustrate that we must be careful making generalities as to the decline of "engraving styles etc. I feel that we must also look @ the REGIONAL picture.

Was the engraving being done (@ the same time period )in "Italy", as it was being done in "Germany" etc" ??? Perhaps not.

Using the "Scots" pistol as an example, lets look @ the time period of the Amer. Rev. War. & compare them with British examples & Amer. examples.
Note examples are of guns that were or could be owned by middle or upper middle class individuals.
Scots examples
This pic is of a gun in the NRA Museum ( I have seen it )http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/scottish_2072.jpg

Here is a favorite of mine
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/untitled.jpg

This gun is one of the more "PLAIN" ones (NOTE - it was made by a British or Lowlander maker)
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/JOHN_FORBES_.jpg

Finally, here is a "common one"
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/Doune_Pistol.jpg

2. British examples - See earlier posts.
3. American examples ( not British or French imports ) - Please post examples
I have several books with great examples of the above, but pics are copyrighted. See "Steel Canvas The art of American Arms" as a start.

What I have found,is that, it appears that while British "presentation Guns Still had a great amount of "heavy" engraving ( as I showed before) The Engraving & decoration, became "finer" And the American Guns, even the presentation ones, were very simple.

IMHO, this may point to "cultural" preferences. In other words if the income of the clientel was the same, then you catered to what they prefered.
A NOTE on the American guns. Could the reason for the "lack of "engraving & decoration" be because of the American mind set ???

BTW here is a site I Know you have, but missed.
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=5104037&uid=717149

Puffer

Tom McArdle
03-18-2008, 07:33 PM
Charles, you make great points. I am trying to offer my thoughts primarily based upon my experiences as an engraver, and one who seldom gets to do the higher end work that i would like too, BTW!

My historical knowledge is scanty, and is somewhat concentrated around the Moravians, as i worked at Old Salem for a time some years ago.

The Puritan values, egalitarian impulses, and economic,war factors seem to be spot on, to me. I can't go any deeper than affirm that your suggestions seem valid.

Thanks for putting the effort into this very interesting thread!

take care,

Tom

charles starks
03-18-2008, 07:38 PM
tom please don get mw wrong i think your possably very correct . im only trying to give alittle deeper prospective of what your saying .
please continue with your prospective , i think we all can learn from it :iagree:

puffer
03-18-2008, 07:51 PM
Here is something a freind in GB sent me. It is a pic of an engraving on a french pistol ca 1750-1800. I was done by a WOMAN engraver ( according to him.)

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/Diana.jpg

Puffer

charles starks
03-18-2008, 08:02 PM
puffer ,

from what i can see i believe that’s the Trigger guard from a Huhnstock or Horneffer Jaeger rifle . of which is I believe the engraving and gilt back ground are attributed to the Stockmar family of Suhl.
the were court gun makers for the Elector of Saxony
. that’s very reminiscing of their work and yes I seem to recall one of their women folk did a engraving during a time . I believe that was about 1750

boston
03-19-2008, 06:34 AM
Amazing Charles,
Thank you Hope you win. My Lindsay tool is outstanding.
Gail in Boston

T.G.III
03-19-2008, 06:57 AM
Since this post is speaking my language I'm gonna help you out.

As has been touched on before the expense in time to do work as has been pictured is emense, as the firearms became more avaliable they became more popular so had to be produced faster. The chiseled work was reserved for royalty and was presented as gifts, the functionality of a firearm was second to the art work.

Very few builders made all of the parts themselves, the parts were purchased from the various suppliers, finished and assembled. Many of the firearms such as you posted will have several makers marks on them, lock, stock, and barrel, not to forget the engravers, typically all from different guilds. Of course this is concerning works of the highest order.

There are several more books that relate to your post out there, probably the best is a two volume set called the Art of the Gunmaker vol. 1 & 2 by J.F. Hayward, I have yet to really get into them but they cover the art aspect of the firearms from 1500's through 1660 in volume 1 and 1660 thru 1830 in volume 2.

My interest in this topic comes from learning to engrave for the purpose of applying it to the muzzleloaders I build, an all in one package.

Plus I tried to win at this contest last year, wasn't happenin. I haven't bought Steve's equipment yet but I could.

charles starks
03-19-2008, 07:44 AM
T.G

i think you bring a very interesting point conserning works on guns and the guns themselves .
See I think we commonly assume that during this time frame most all folks would have had some type of firearm . But this really doesn’t hold true especially in Europe. Where many of the different crown laws really made owning and carrying such a weapon , a privilege.

We also assume that here in the US having a firearm was very common with every home and just about every male from a young age have one .
However what is interesting if we look at the writings even as late as the Alamo , we find that descriptions of men showing up to fight with nothing more the pitch forks and axes , fairly common .
We also find that many times those that did show up with firearms often had old out dated weapons , used to the point that reliability was questionable .
Another interesting note about the Alamo itself . While it happened during what is considered the percussion lock era , not one of these weapons is listed to have been at that battle or in inventory

Those who have read about Sgt York during WW1 for instance . Those that have not read of this medial of honor recipient may be fascinated to learn that upon enlisting , he showed up with a flintlock and had no experience with the cartridge weapons that had been in use for a very long time .
While he was an expert marksman , he had to be trained in the use of the, new to him ,weapon system .

I think however this comes back to the issue that in this country at least function was the rule of the day . Thus desired items had to be practical first and foremost, art being well down the list .

Seems to me though , early in Europe the principle seems to have been different , IE .
While the goods most certainly needed to be functional, they also had to be artistic in how the item presented itself , which also depicted status .
Later as this became less of an issue and concerning firearms , they became more readily available , this heavy type of engraving became less . However most all still carried engravings of some sorts where the weapons produced for the colonial trade often had little to no engraving on them .
those that did were not destined or produce with the common person in mind

Very interesting point . Thank you for the post

Puffer. here are a couple more of their works

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg23.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg22.jpg

jbullard1
03-19-2008, 08:32 AM
Forgive the dumb question
What is the most used tool in hand engraving

T.G.III
03-19-2008, 09:00 AM
We also assume that here in the US having a firearm was very common with every home and just about every male from a young age have one .
However what is interesting if we look at the writings even as late as the Alamo , we find that descriptions of men showing up to fight with nothing more the pitch forks and axes , fairly common .
We also find that many times those that did show up with firearms often had old out dated weapons , used to the point that reliability was questionable .
Another interesting note about the Alamo itself . While it happened during what is considered the percussion lock era , not one of these weapons is listed to have been at that battle or in inventory

Actually this statement isn't entirely correct. The percussion system was invented about 1830 and came into use around the population centers, but took alot longer to reach outlying areas, many of the old timers of the era did not trust the new system. If you were leaving your family to fight a battle would you leave them defensless?

Take care in reading the writings as they are used in todays political arena.

At this point lets agree to dis-agree.


Here are a couple plates from vol. 1 of the above mentioned books.
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/img028.jpg
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/img026.jpg

charles starks
03-19-2008, 04:03 PM
Actually this statement isn't entirely correct. The percussion system was invented about 1830 and came into use around the population centers, but took alot longer to reach outlying areas, many of the old timers of the era did not trust the new system. If you were leaving your family to fight a battle would you leave them defensless?





ohh i would agree with you as the flintlock is still in use today .
however that doesn’t change that caps started here in the US in 1820 " US paten date ". Europe 1810-12 "french and english paten dates "depending on what documentation you want to believe .
My statement wasn’t meant to say that all folks used percussion rifles within that time frame.
My personal opinion is they did not and in fact they never were as wide spread as we are lead to believe ..
but for their quick spred in population areas .

However that doesn’t change the facts that many of the fur trade listing show thousands of caps being brought to the fur trade rendezvous in the 1830 and well past 1840 which by the way isnt the actual end of the fur trade , just the last major gathering by the fur companies .

Now within reason we simply have to accept that those caps were brought for a reason even though the documentation of rifles using them is somewhat lose /small .


Hence the percussion era normally is accepted to be in this country 1820 -about 1880 thus covering the rise of this system and its decline .
This doesn’t mean it did not last longer or that it did not start earlier . Only that it was the main so called hay-day of that system
We can say the same thing about the so called golden age of the long rifle or the golden age of the SXS
IE a general statement and a general time frame.

however that doesnt change the documentation in diaries and dispatches describing adult males showing up for enlistment or musters with no weapon

i also must agree that one must be careful . however what we must be careful with is our books , especially the really good older ones . Most of these were printed in a time of limited resources for study . Thus the writers often relied on museum documentation for their documentation .
Which is another source we must be careful of as often times items are describe , listed and cataloged completely wrong.

In todays age of internet resources , access to congressional libraries , church catalogs of actual writings
+ 100’s of thousands of other resources all on electronic data bases with 100sands being added each day , we often find that what we believed true , is dated .
For instance , just recently the 1853 edition of Bishop Frederic Baraga's dictionary has been cataloged and added to electronic resources.
Now many of the writings concerning a few of the eastern Americian Indian languages
Is found lacking . Not because the resource has not always been there but because access to it for documentation has been limited .

Thus to tie this back into the subject here . As we learn more and find more such resources , I have to wonder w hat will come in the future . How many of these old engravings that we are discussing may in fact be documented wrong or the suporting documentation was so light that it should be suspect , I guess only time will tell
But no mater , I still love the old books . Especially ones like you posted , they have a class all their own that doesn’t seem to be able to be repeated today

puffer
03-19-2008, 04:49 PM
Chas. thanks for IDing the pic.. Also thanks for the added pics.

I've got to run, but I will be putting some thoughts in, tomarrow, along the line of your last couple of posts.

BTW - Unkown to many, there were a number of wonen involved in the gun making trade, at least in Britan ( example, the Hudson Bay Co.'s records show several continuing as major suppiers after their husbands death.

Puffer

charles starks
03-19-2008, 05:03 PM
ok yess, im sorry i got way off track with that post , lets get back to period engravings . sorry

Zernike Au
03-19-2008, 05:49 PM
Wha a great thread! Here is my questions, please don't mind if I have missed any thing that you have already post in your previous post as my English is not good:)

1. I am very new to engraving and I am starting to know more who is Narskim or Churchchill (sorry really very difficult for me to remember the name, please forgive me) and know they affecting the
the whole engraving trend in the USA, how about in Europe like French, Italy, Austria, Belgium? An engraver or a gun manufacturer in different period? The trend is the engraver's style, or the factory pattern style, the art trend in the fine art field has any affecting those popular "trend" or "style"? Are these style or trend affecting each other from country to country?

2. From you photo I found one wooden handle with very beautiful silver inlay (is this term correct?) Is this also call engaving? I try to search some more information about this technique but fail, can you give me some hints so I can dig it out.

More question is coming, I am so greedy:)
The Lindsay's tool is very attractive, I love it so much when the first time I hold it in my hand........


Thanks again for the information of the wonderful books.
Zernike

charles starks
03-19-2008, 06:15 PM
not to worry Zernike, some say my english isnt to good eather


I am very new to engraving and I am starting to know more who is Narskim or Churchchill (sorry really very difficult for me to remember the name, please forgive me) and know they affecting the
the whole engraving trend in the USA,

could someone here give an answer to this question ?. im not that knowledgeable concerning these folks . the information would be appreciated .

how about in Europe like French, Italy, Austria, Belgium? An engraver or a gun manufacturer in different period? The trend is the engraver's style, or the factory pattern style, the art trend in the fine art field has any affecting those popular "trend" or "style"? Are these style or trend affecting each other from country to country?

IF i understand you question , i would say ,yes , i think they do . this is very much what we are discussing / working through in this discussion .

From you photo I found one wooden handle with very beautiful silver inlay (is this term correct?) Is this also call engaving? I try to search some more information about this technique but fail, can you give me some hints so I can dig it out.


Not sure which photo you refer to but I assume it’s the last photo I posted

the silver inlay on the wrist of the rifle i posted is call a thumb piece or thumb inlay .
this was either made from plate , inlet into the wood of the stock ,then engraved OR it was engraved and then inlet into the wood ..
Now this piece could also be a casting of an earlier engraving , which is very commonly used today in place of actual engraving .

Now the photo that Puffer posted is of a trigger guard . This also would be a casting and then the engraving done on the piece or cast into the piece .
With the one in his photo however IMO this is relief engraving , not casting

Roger Bleile
03-19-2008, 06:40 PM
1. I am very new to engraving and I am starting to know more who is Narskim or Churchchill Zernike

Zernike,

I believe you are refering to Louis D. Nimschke and Winston G. Churchill.

L. D. Nimschke was born in Germany in July 1832. He immigrated to America about 1850. He died at the age of 71 around April 1904. He engraved until 1902. This link will give you some background: http://www.georgemadis.com/987/NL1-1.html

Winston G. Churchill is a contemporary gun engraver of the highest reputation. He works from his studio in Vermont. He began as a gun engraver in 1969 with the firm of Griffin & Howe under the tutelage of the late master Josef Fugger. This link will give you some background on WGC: http://members.forbes.com/fyi/2006/1030/113.html

Best wishes,

Roger

Roger Bleile
03-19-2008, 08:53 PM
After reading 96 posts on this thread, I am ready to chime in with my two cents worth.

I first want to thank Charles for starting this discussion about the history of the art. It has become obvious, due to this thread, that there are many here whose interests go beyond "teach me how to engrave."

Next I have to say that I was surprised at comments early in this thread that indicated a belief that the type of engraving that Charles displayed in the beginning was not being done because contemporary engravers do not want to spend the time and effort to accomplish such work. Have you been looking at the pictures of top level work on this site or the Engravers Cafe?!!!!

Contemporary engravers such as Ron Smith, Phil Griffnee, Alain Lovenberg, and Winston Churchill, among others, are doing work that takes thousands of hours for one gun. The guns are not usually done in the baroque style of Thuraine or Le Hollandois but are masterpieces of the engravers art to rival anything of the past. While I own hundreds of books on firearms and every book directly devoted to gun engraving, I can make this statement from first hand viewing of early guns in collections from the Museum of Hunting and Nature in Paris to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York and most recently the Frazier Museum of Historical Arms in Louisville to name but a few.

Guns by Monte Mandarino have been mentioned. Monte has made a number of muzzle loading rifles in the style of those in question. This style of gun has also been made by John Bivens. In both cases Daniel Goodwin did the engraving. Parts of these guns can be seen on pages 55 and 56 of my book American Engravers. The gun on page 55 is a wheelock designed to conform to the Nuremberg style of 1690 with the butt plate shown on the next page. On page 56 is a side plate or "serpentine" of a Mandarino gun in the style of a German long rifle of the early 18th century. I have looked at and handled both of these guns and can assure you that the engraving is the equal of anything I have seen on antique specimens.

Now let us proceed to the question of why the style in question is rarely executed today or even in the past 125 years or more.

Some of the previous posts have, I believe, touched on the reason. Basically I believe that one reason is simply due to changing styles in everything from architecture to furniture over the same period of time. The wealthy who can afford ornate and expensive things are always looking for the "next big thing." Thus popular styles changed over time from baroque to rococo to neoclassical to art Nuevo to art Decco and so on.

Another reason is the form of the gun itself. Muzzle loading guns lend themselves better to highly ornate decoration of the baroque and rococo style due to the configuration of the cock (hammer), lock, side plate, stock shape and barrel configuration.

An additional factor was the decline or, as in the case of France, the elimination of the aristocracy who had favored the most ornate artifacts. Especially in America where the European aristocracy was even held in contempt, this distain for for the old order caused the highly ornate to be frowned upon. This can be seen in all American craft from furniture to guns of the colonial period.

Because I personally like the baroque style I have, in the past, engraved a few things that way to test the market for that style and see if I could gain commissions for it. Generally the people who actually pay for engraved arms met this work with a lack of enthusiasm. Thus the market calls the tune unless one wishes to invest the time and money only for self-satisfaction.

I hope I have added something useful to this discussion. The following books are ones that I can recommend for more illustration of the arms and engraving in question on this thread:

Master French Gunsmiths' Designs (XVII-XIX Centuries) by Stephen C. Grancsay, Winchester Press. This book has all of the designs shown in Prof. Lenk's book plus many more.

The Art of Gun Engraving by Claude Gaier and Pietro Sabatti, Knickerbocker Press. This book, in English (also found with French text) shows the best of the old and new from ornate wheelocks to the best of Lovenberg.

Suhler Waffenkunst (Artistic Guns of Suhl) by Hans-Jurgen Fritze,Peter Arfman-Verlag. This book in German is replete with pictures of both antique and modern German guns of the most ornate decoration.

Roger Bleile

Gobbler
03-19-2008, 10:30 PM
Roger excellent post.
An additional factor was the decline or, as in the case of France, the elimination of the aristocracy who had favored the most ornate artifacts. Especially in America where the European aristocracy was even held in contempt, this distain for the highly ornate was frowned upon. This can be seen in all American craft from furniture to guns of the colonial period.
I would have never have thought of this but it makes perfect sense it has been done with other things in history (you can't have something from the homeland)
This is a great thread and has kept me reading every day to see what's is new // also I agree that the talent on this forum is TOP SHELF alright. My earlier posts were a general statement about the country // While the talent is most certainly still out there, the use is not as wide spread as it was in earlier years // take buildings for example we construct a good strong build but we don't see the ornate elaborate brick work of even 75 to 100 years ago. I really believe it has to do with the amount of time we have to do the job. We as a society demand fast and thats lacks in quality when you reach a certain speed. I'm probbably rambling on but just my thoughts

T.G.III
03-20-2008, 07:02 AM
Here are a couple locks from the second vol. of the "Art of the Gunmaker" clearly one is highly chiseled, leaning to the position that many of the drawing plates are pulls from actual pieces.

This has been a good thread and very informative, I mis-represented a date in a previous post but still hold to my convictions, but deserves another thread at a later date.

Enjoy the pics.
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/img029.jpg
missing pic

charles starks
03-20-2008, 07:06 AM
Very good post Roger .
could you provide links to where we could see these works ?
i would have to agree with gobbler . while there are some that still may do this work , frankly there seems to be few .
the heavy floral and leaf scrolls seem to be more commonly replaced by the line type scrolls .
don’t get me wrong this isn’t a bad thing I, its just different and as you say still takes a high level of skill .
One thing that was touched on that I think we have kinda passed over is the tools available in the early periods .
Now please correct me if im wrong here but I wouldn’t think the engravers back then had cobalt or other steals that we have today to make gravers . Probably the best steel would have been of high carbon but still not to the level of carbon tool steels we have today .
But then we also would have to consider that the materials they were working on were most times iron .
Would also maybe the tools have changed concerning today’s graver points ? Or are the points today very reminiscing of the tools available then ?
I also wonder if as the metals changed that items were made from , if the available tools kept up with these changes .
Could there have been a situation where simply put the available tools simply were no longer adequate for doing this type of work ?

TG , no worries here , we are all learning , i know i am anyway .
Im also going to start another thread and that will be along these lines maybe we can get some more intest in a slightly diffrent topic but still along this same area

Tom McArdle
03-20-2008, 10:47 AM
Hi Roger,

Thanks for your post. you said more authoritatively and succinctly most of what I was trying to say! Your point about the aristocracy is a great one I had not thought of.

take care,

Tom

Tom

puffer
03-20-2008, 04:22 PM
Roger, I am glad, you chimed in. Your thought follow some of thae I have been thinking about.

BTW. Your reference tio the quality of the engravers, is IMHO correct.

Puffer

Zernike Au
03-20-2008, 08:32 PM
Not sure which photo you refer to but I assume it’s the last photo I posted



Thanks Charles, sorry the photo is posted by Puff at the post No. 47. Any tips to dig out more information, wood cannot raise blur to hold gold or silver like steel! Adhesive? Or you going to talk about it in your other thread?

Let me try again: By the time we have Louis D. Nimschke , what happened in other European countries on or before that period, any other great engraver who leading the whole trend in different European countries like Belgium, Germany, Austria, Italy or France? I mean not only in Gun industry but also other industry like jewelly.....?

Thanks Roger for the great information, I love Baroque music..

Zernike

charles starks
03-20-2008, 09:26 PM
wood cannot raise blur to hold gold or silver like steel! Adhesive? Or you going to talk about it in your other thread?


What your asking is about inlays to wood . It is something like inletting to steel .
Especially when doing fine wire works . A trough is opened , the silver or what have you is burred on its edges to help it hold and its forced into the opening . Now you can and most folks do add a little hoof glue or other glue to help bind the inlay into place but this only helps the binding action of the wood itself as it tries to force itself back closed ..
With the large inlay puffer posted , this would be glued and or even pinned in place . the pins matching the inlay and hidden within the work itself . Sometime the pins are left to show as decorations in and of themselves

charles starks
03-21-2008, 08:18 AM
I think that while the styles did change from baroque to rococo just as roger has described , I think another issue also started showing its head during the same time frame, especially concerning the Americas. Not only did line type engraving really seem to be the norm , if we look at what relief is found on especially rifles , it appears to be more castings then actual engraving .
Thus I cant help but wonder if there still was a large section of the populations that wanted this old style of work , but just did not want to pay the price . This I think would have been compounded by the large numbers of weapons flowing into this country .
An original work could be simply copied in the casting .

However those of us that do casting of parts know that the result does not carry near the appeal of the actual engraving and relief work .
I think the acceptance of casting though also played a part in the decline of actual relief engravings
Here are some examples of originals documented by Hamilton in his study called Colonial Frontier gun.
This is another fantastic study . While this book mostly documents actual pieces found in archeological digs and such and while these pieces have obviously seen their better days , we can still see the differences between the actual engraving and the castings .
I wonder how much plagiarism also played a part ?

what i assume to be the Original engraving
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/documentation/eg25.jpg

and knock offs obviously based of the same design but with far less skill in the work ?
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/documentation/eg24.jpg

here also is a comparision of work found at the end of the 18th century

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/VMF25bxl.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/SXS/VMF20bxl.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/SXS/VMF29axl.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/pix1268900750.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/pix1268900328.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/VMF31dxl.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/Manton20Double.jpg

Zernike Au
03-21-2008, 09:34 AM
I am coming...
Thanks Charles for the great photo but I would like to know the appro. year and the country of the gun you show in the comparsion photos, I mean your post no. 107, are they from Europe, which country?
If I can understand correctly, you are talking about original engraving and casting, is all these guns are original or casting? I saw the lettering on some photos is Old English, is this gun from British? If not, where is the font "Old English" from? Which country use this font firstly?

Sorry my monitor may different from yours so I am not sure which one is casting but the photos are so beautiful, you have all these gun?

Thanks.

Add: I mean the color photos.....not the black and white one.
Zernike

charles starks
03-21-2008, 11:30 AM
the photos of the fowler and SXS are all English made By Moore . Larson and Manton .
the date to the golden age of the SXS so they are late 1770 -1790
now none of these are castings but actual engravings , the castings are the lock plates shown in Black and white . the casting compression is of the plates themselves . I had a couple other photos i though i put up , i guess i messed those up .
now here are some more examples from Mr. Lindsay’s documentation

this is a bribe piece built by LaPage and commissioned by the French government for Abd el Kadir before his capture in 1847 . the side plat and pommel i believe to be castings
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg26.jpg

these are shown as Schwindels work don in about 1715
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg27.jpg

in comparission and at about the same date as the SXS i posted this morninf is this volley gun done approx 1795
inscribed Dupe&Co,, Perdition to Conspirators , Glen Frost 1793. whit this alone I'll defend Robro Camp 1795


http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg28.jpg

compaired to this work done in 1814 for ptince osten-Sachen the barrels are signed leopold Bernardo and the precussion locks signed Zaoue

I believe that the larger parts of this peice are castings and not the actual engravings
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg30.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg29.jpg


that brings us to these to fine exsamples of
#1 Henry rifle dated 1860
#2 a Winchester model 66" gold plated " dated 1872

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg31.jpg

again these all “ this post “ come from Merrill Lindsay’s book : An Illustrated history of firearms . we must give credit where credit is do , for the fine documentation

puffer
03-21-2008, 04:10 PM
This thread has been an eye opener for me.:whoo:
For more years than I like to think about, I have been envolved with firearms, as a shooter,instructor & owner. Although I have had the privilage of seeing a fair number of "ETCHED' & decorated, fireams ( museums , collections, etc ) My responce has been, they are beautiful & I also admired the work envolved, BUT I never really thought about the History" of the designs etc. & why the transitions & variences from region to region. What drove it ???

Puffer

puffer
03-21-2008, 05:50 PM
A few days ago, I had an occurrence, that vindicated (IMHO) a thought that I feel is one of the MAJOR factors in the discussion we are having.

Before I start, here is the BASIC SUPPOSITION I am operating from.:
Etching is an ART FORM. As such it has various purposes, BUT I am restricting it to the following:
DECORATIVE ( although engraving can enhance the function of the object, such as engraving the hammer spur of a pistol, will improve the the ability to cock the gun. ) here we are looking @ enhancing the appearance of the object.

The occurrence - A few days ago, I traded business cards with a very sheik business Lady ( she wanted me to train her employees in a NRA "Refuse to be a Victim" class. I reached into my wallet & extracted a card from a plastic holder. She reached into her designer purse & extracted a card from a VERY ORNATE ETCHED case. I made a comment & she told me that it actually was an heirloom antique CIGARETTE case.:yesnod:
I did a web search & found that there was a thriving business in cigarette cases (both antique & new ) I also saw that many were being offered as cigarette cases/card holders ( for the PC ??)
here are a few examples, from the simple to the ornate.
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/Untitled-ccpost1.jpg
missing pic

Why the "resurgence" in the popularity of cigarette cases ?? $$$$$$

THOUGHT
The artists/craftsmen(& women) need to EAT.
Support for the "arts" has been primarily from the wealthy,the well placed, & or the well "healed" They became patrons, &/or clients.Therefore, you produce what they desire.( to show their wealth,power,political mind set,their idea of "beauty (such as a resurgence of Greco/Roman art & architecture)etc. Even throughout the many times of WAR & political upheavel, The ELITE continued (& still do in many cases) to "advertise" the above.

what are your thoughts ???

Puffer

charles starks
03-21-2008, 06:42 PM
ya i can see that puffer .
having a heavy engraved item , im sure was seen as a status symbol. Be it a gun , tea pot , or cigarette case , it was kinda a way of saying who you were and a way of getting noticed . Thus when the wealthy faced a decline , the works became more simple

puffer
03-21-2008, 09:41 PM
it was kinda a way of saying who you were and a way of getting noticed . Thus when the wealthy faced a decline , the works became more simple
BUT, HAS THE WEALTHY EVER REALLY FACED A DECLINE ??? IMHO - no.

Here is Colt revolver (ca 1862)

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/51222.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/colt.jpg

Here is a Colt revolver 100 years later(ca.1960s)
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/tiffanycoltdiandback357.jpg

Kind of reminds me of those old flintlocks etc.

BTW the engraving was done by Colt (I beieve) & the stocks by Tiffany


If you have a copy of "Steel Canvas" by R.L.Wilson, you will find many more like this PLUS those done for S&W by Tiffanny.



Also in there is a knife that I would swear dates from 1500s except the heavely engraved blade is a "bowie"

Puffer

lynn_h_adams@yahoo.com
03-22-2008, 04:57 AM
I guess this early engraving was done when time didn't matter, much like all the hand laid stone walls in Pa. Stone by stone, line by line. This is a luxury of time to do this type of work.

charles starks
03-22-2008, 08:34 AM
sorry double post

charles starks
03-22-2008, 09:00 AM
BUT, HAS THE WEALTHY EVER REALLY FACED A DECLINE ??? IMHO - no.

Here is Colt revolver (ca 1862)

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/51222.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/proffesor/colt.jpg

Here is a Colt revolver 100 years later(ca.1960s)
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/tiffanycoltdiandback357.jpg

Kind of reminds me of those old flintlocks etc.

BTW the engraving was done by Colt (I beieve) & the stocks by Tiffany


If you have a copy of "Steel Canvas" by R.L.Wilson, you will find many more like this PLUS those done for S&W by Tiffanny.



Also in there is a knife that I would swear dates from 1500s except the heavely engraved blade is a "bowie"

Puffer
nice post puffer .

Has the wealthy ever declined ? Ya I think so . Most certainly a % of that group held on but even then their level of wealth waned in comparison. Most certainly those in the Mega wealth range were lest effected the those of less wealth but still I think they all felt pressures of changing times

with the colt pistol , does anyone else see this as a mix of influences and time frames ?
Could this be considered a transitional type of work , IE part showing the preference of later types of scroll work while still other parts holding on to the heavy relief engraving of an earlier time ?.
What im getting at is up until now we have really seen examples of one or the other types of work .
Yet if we are to support the thought of natural change there should be examples such as this piece which would provide a glimpse into one of either the preference for one type of engraving transitioning to another .
Im thinking we should see a gradual change in application . So surly there would be items showing some of both works then gradually carrying more and more of the preferred work Not a so called light switch change but an evolution from one form to another ..

I would like to also say this . Thank you all for your replies to this topic I think we all have learned a lot , I know I have .
I noticed this morning we are real close to the 2500 views mark for this topic .
So I would like to say this because I think there are a lot of folks reading but maybe afraid to post for any given reason IE maybe lack of experience in this area or maybe they think a question is to basic or something .
I have had some PM on the subject where folks have stated they enjoy the topic but feel its out of their area or knowledge .
To that I want to say . Folks . Knowledge is relative, we all can learn from each other . While its true that the inexperienced can learn from the experienced , the opposite also holds true .
Sometimes as we get deep into our studies of any given subject , we miss the simple things that often , newer folks see but are afraid to comment because they think its already been thought of .

So please don’t be intimidated . Make your post , give your thoughts . If you have or know of some examples, post them . If they are from books , be sure to mention the name of the book and give do credit to the author.. The folks that prepare such documentation no mater how old the print may be , deserve the admiration, respect and credit for their work . Some of the older books folks may not be familiar with such as Dr Links , there are others out there as well im sure on this subject . some very good writings have been sugested here . Knowing about them helps get such works back into circulation and help further our knowledge

you never know you might just be holding something none of us have thought of .

puffer
03-22-2008, 09:45 AM
I guess this early engraving was done when time didn't matter, much like all the hand laid stone walls in Pa. Stone by stone, line by line. This is a luxury of time to do this type of work.

Lynn, You bring up an interesting point, but I would like to add a "qualifier to the concept of "luxury of time"
I am a "senior citizen":smile5: & one of the things I have observed, much to my concern :mad: is a rapid decline of craftsmanship in the trades, especially the home building trade.
Until recently, I owned a home that was built in the mid 1950s.It was not a "custom" built home but one that was built in a small development, for the average middle class consumer.One example of the difference in craftsmanship, is the fit of the molding. In this house, the "inexpensive" mahogany base molding was "coped" for a very tight & precise fit. But today, you will only find this in higher end homes & then you pay for it.

How does this apply to our discussion ?? I feel that it does so in 3 ways
1. $$$$ It takes more time to "cope" a joint, than it does to do a 45 degree cut. Time = $$
2. The diminishing pool of trained personal. Historically, individuals learned their "trade" by being apprentices.( to an individual, guild etc.) In the pre 1800s (or later), an apprentice would start learning the trade as a pre teen.In more modern times, the age became "older" & the "apprenticeship" became a part of Unions. In the last few years we have seen a decline in the union involvement in many of the trades. We have also seen a decline in individuals willing to "apprentice" themselves to individuals to learn a craft.
3. Our American society has become one of "INSTANT GRATIFICATION" We want it NOW!!!!
How many of you, who do custom engraving & have agreed to the $$, but became agitated or even backed out when they were told that it would not be finished for several months or even a year ????[/COLOR[COLOR="Black"]

So the ? of "the luxury of time" IE both on the avail. of craftsmen(& women) willing to learn the craft & the client willing to pay & wait.

Puffer

Gobbler
03-22-2008, 10:01 AM
I guess this early engraving was done when time didn't matter, much like all the hand laid stone walls in Pa. Stone by stone, line by line. This is a luxury of time to do this type of work.


I agree on this and again I go back to part of my oringinal post

I believe the people are too fast paced to slow down and do fine / detailed work. The world has quantity standards and not longer has quality stadards
this being said in general across the board



// (The lack of time to do a specific job will always show in the end finished product) Do we do bad work today? IMO no. but we do suffer in quality as to what we used to or could have done do to the lack of time forced by a demanding society to move at a faster pace. Just a thought but 25 years ago we really didn't care about the speed of our computer but rather the fact that we had them.
now we cannot survive without the fastest on the market. Aww I'm rambling now. I will say I beleive and it has been proven by many that the talent to do such ornate work is WITHOUT A DOUBT still out there. I also beleive we are begining to see the want by society to see and have that quality again and continue to wait for the scales to tip in that direction again. OK just rambling now but anyway this thread so far has been very interesting and hope it continues along for awhile. Charles, Puffer, Roger, Gravertom, and the others have brought some pictures of great work and info to all of us to share

Thanks

puffer
03-22-2008, 11:07 AM
.

Has the wealthy ever declined ? Ya I think so . Most certainly a % of that group held on but even then their level of wealth waned in comparison. Most certainly those in the Mega wealth range were lest effected the those of less wealth but still I think they all felt pressures of changing times

.

IMHO, Yes & NO.
Yes, if you qualify the statement by isolating it to a specific time, location &/or culture.(the "mega" wealthy or for that matter very wealthy, may have lost their wealth or had it decline due to War,politics, natural disasters etc. )

But NO in view of the overall picture. The wealth was still out there & was in the hands a an elite few. It just "changed hands :lol: (went from the Aristocrats, royality,etc., to the "merchants"
Example may be in todays modern society. In the western society, the Royalty etc lost it's great wealth ( the last being the Tzars) but at the same time we have the rise of the wealthy "merchant ( the DeBeers, Gettys, Fords & today the Waltons, Gates,Allens etc.) & therefore the type of ways the wealth was "displayed" changed ??? ( example both Gates & Allen, when seen in public are low keyed. But they do own Mansions. Also Allen has demonstrated his wealth by building a "Rock & Roll" Center. )

BTW I live in the Seattle area. This area (King Co. WA ) is rated as the 10th wealthiest county in the USA. (6,800 milionaires & NO I am not one) In fact 2 of the wealthiest 5 individuals in the world live here ( Plus 1 of the wealthiest 20 )

Just a thought

Puffer

puffer
03-22-2008, 03:17 PM
In the near future, I will be posting on this thread about the rise & fall of engraving, using Scottish Firearms as my example.

BUT until then here is MY DREAM PISTOL:drool5: :drool5:

WHY this GUN ??? -as Chas. & others viewing this thread, who know me, know that I have 2 major areas of research.Guns of the UK ( Brit & Scot - pre 1840 ) & the North West Co./Hudson Bay Co. (NWC/HBC(I not only research it, but also share my knowledge in several venues, incl. schools, historical presentations, the TMA forum etc.)this gun not only is beautiful but brings my to "passions" together
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/Untitled-1-3.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/51222.jpg
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/colt.jpg


The pictures are from the Royal Museum of Ont. ( by their permission)


The gun was made by Jn. Murdoch of Doune in ca 1800. for William McGillivray (the Chief Director of the NWC ) The engraving on the left grip also has the NWC Arms & on the right grip the NWC crest ( a beaver chewing on a tree ) & the initals, WM

Any one want to make & engrave a copy for me & donate it to me ??:yesnod:

Puffer

jbullard1
03-22-2008, 09:04 PM
It appears, to me, that there is a distinct diffrence between the scottish engraving that Puffer posted and the english engraving that Charles posted . Are there any examples of the scottish engraving being done in americia ?
Jerry

puffer
03-23-2008, 08:41 AM
It appears, to me, that there is a distinct diffrence between the scottish engraving that Puffer posted and the english engraving that Charles posted . Are there any examples of the scottish engraving being done in americia ?
Jerry

I am attempting to put together a an overview of the engraving on the Highland Scots firearms & the "uniqueness of the designs.
For NOW let me say this
1. The Highland designs are distinctively different than the British. This is VERY important in view of the fact that the majority of Scots were NOT Highlanders but were primaily Englih. :peace:
They did not speak Gaelic. wear kilts etc. And their arms & the decorations on them,were inline wth the British. Plus ALMOST ALL manufacturing was done in the Lowlands.

2. At this time, I have not seen ANY Highland designs made in America. NOTE There are many examples of rhe firearms themselves being here. In fact, one of the earliest surviving examples os a Highland snaphance lock was found in Jamestown,VA (dated ca 1607 )

Puffer

charles starks
03-23-2008, 10:25 AM
Looking forward to reading the compressions puffer

This morning I was reading through the comments here and I came across a comment that was made to one of the posts that may not have been fully understood or maybe I was just reading humor but I though it would be a good compression on this subject , basically it’s the difference between Rococo and Baroque forms .
Rococo is very much a base for most carvings of 18th century pieces when it comes to rifles in the Americas, this is in both engravings and carvings . That being said however there are some rifles that show remnants of Baroque .
There also seems to be a difference in this with the art showing and Americanized influence .
To Quote Shumway in this area , this is what he had to say
It is well to bear in mind , however that during the first four decades of the 19th century the Americanized rococo art found on American long rifles under went a gradual Degradation .As the old masters of the 18th century died off, and less well trained students of their lesser well trained students moved westward, the principles of rococo decorations were forgotten and then lost .

Baroque seems to be a very common style of the 17th century up tell about mid to ¾ 18th century .
Baroque has a lot of bilateral symmetry especially in its more evolved forms .
Rococo on the other hand seems to avoid symmetry and emphasizes informality . Basically more like whats seen in nature with leaves , vines , shells , flowers , opening leaves

Shumway again had this to say about the change .
representations of the acanthus leaf foliage, was very popular in the Baroque period , were it carried over into the rococo period .Good Rococo art is rhythmic and causes the eye to move easily from one part to another with out discontinuity .The C scrolls and S scrolls have a wave like appearance, and some applications can be thought as a representation of ocean waves .

Daniel Houwer
03-23-2008, 05:40 PM
Wauw, Charles!

What an interesting post!!!. Have not had the time to read through all of them, but I love the old design's! Especialy like the flintlock stuff!

Daniel

jbullard1
03-23-2008, 07:46 PM
Can someone explain a "Highland snaphance lock" I dont know very much about early firearms. To me it looks like an early attempt at a flintlock

puffer
03-23-2008, 07:56 PM
Can someone explain a "Highland snaphance lock" I dont know very much about early firearms. To me it looks like an early attempt at a flintlock
Basicly YOU"VE GOT IT :hurray:

If you want more detailed info PM me or go to this site

http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.com/forum/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=7561

Puffer

charles starks
03-24-2008, 02:32 PM
puffer , did you come up with any comparissions ?

jbullard1
03-24-2008, 07:07 PM
Do you have any examples of engravings from this time period that tell of an adventure or story on multiple sections/areas or weapons

puffer
03-24-2008, 07:17 PM
Do you have any examples of engravings from this time period that tell of an adventure or story on multiple sections/areas or weapons

Who is this ?? addressed to???

What time period Etc, ??

BTW Check your PM box


Puffer

charles starks
03-24-2008, 07:25 PM
puffer , i think any time period would work .. you have any loaded up so as to post here ?

the answer jbullard1, i dont know of a story but many of the gun engravings depict different acts , IE hunting with dogs , water fowl hunting. animals and such .
you also see alot of this in today’s works .

Now as far as engraving goes itself , we have to remember that books , newspapers , and a lot of the artworks were done from engravings and then stamped so as stories , I would say yes , many of these type engravings do tell stories , or depictions.
i believe this is also why they are stilled called engravings and not paintings or drawings .
here is one you might enjoy

The Boucher engraving depicts a French pastorale scence from the 18th century.

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg33.jpg

puffer
03-24-2008, 07:52 PM
puffer , i think any time period would work .. you have any loaded up so as to post here ?

the answer jbullard1, i dont know of a story but many of the gun engravings depict different acts , IE hunting with dogs , water fowl hunting. animals and such .
you also see alot of this in today’s works .

Now as far as engraving goes itself , we have to remember that books , newspapers , and a lot of the artworks were done from engravings and then stamped so as stories , I would say yes , many of these type engravings do tell stories , or depictions.
i believe this is also why they are stilled called engravings and not paintings or drawings .
here is one you might enjoy

The Boucher engraving depicts a French pastorale scence from the 18th century.

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/eg33.jpg Chas. I will have to do some "file" searching.

BUT this is a GREAT thought. I would think that it would be prevalent in "presentation" guns, esp. military ( it is very so on presentation swords)

Puffer

puffer
03-24-2008, 07:55 PM
For the EYE, here is a 1550+, wheellock, from the NRA Museum

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/C3DT0883.jpg

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/C3DT0902.jpg

Enjoy

Puffer

puffer
03-25-2008, 06:15 PM
Here is a 1650 DUTCH Wheelock pistol.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/Untitled-1-4.jpg

I thought that you might not only enjoy looking @ it, but it has some decorating features that I find interesting. PLEASE comment . I would like know your thoughts

The stock is Ebony

There are 2 distinct types of decoration on this gun.

1. Decoration on the steel parts.
A. it appears to me to be not as "fine" ( or "cruder") as the other "steel" engravings i have looked at Is the "COARSENESS" do to the "heavy" design or to the engraver ???
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/1650-57k.jpg
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/1650-57i.jpg
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/1650-57c.jpg

2. The silver work.
A. This tome seems to be a combination of engraving & inlay work ???
B. this also seems to be not as "fine" ???
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/1650-57h.jpg
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/1650-57g.jpg
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/1650-57d.jpg
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/060-61650-57j.jpg

Thank you

Puffer

jbullard1
03-25-2008, 07:21 PM
What are the larger inlay pieces made of?
They appear to me to be a heavier/courser engraving style but real beauties never the less

charles starks
03-26-2008, 08:03 AM
WOW puffer , nice post , very different then what we see today .
currently im working on a rifle for a customer who wants the decorations to be of Celtic designs .
As such I began by studying the BOOK of KELLS and the Book of Celtic art
Suddenly what I found myself in was a completely different layout of scrolls .lettering , Knott work and such .
Understandably 1000 X more intricate then anything we have posted or I think seen and also a style I don’t think we ? At least I have seen used much on firearms .
This leads me to an even greater belief in completely different separations of styles between different countries

Ill see if I can find a better photo of a early Tara brooch
But in the main time this will have to do .
This form when seen , doesn’t appear to have changed all the much . Is that because of the culture I wonder or is it becouse of a modern resergance into the Celtic arts ?

http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/Clock-Gaelic-Bronze.gif

Big-Un
03-26-2008, 11:29 AM
IMO the "crude" work on the above piece seems to have been done by a different person (apprentice?), evidenced by the fine design and execution of the rosette and the lettering surrounding it. The pig is intruding on the lettering, which I assume (and we all know what that means!) the master would not do. This seems to me to have been done by two people, and maybe the ornamentation was not done at the same time; possibly years apart?

puffer
03-26-2008, 05:10 PM
IMO the "crude" work on the above piece seems to have been done by a different person (apprentice?), evidenced by the fine design and execution of the rosette and the lettering surrounding it. The pig is intruding on the lettering, which I assume (and we all know what that means!) the master would not do. This seems to me to have been done by two people, and maybe the ornamentation was not done at the same time; possibly years apart?

Some great insites. Now that you mention it, I agree, that silver work was not doneame prson. I also agree that it looks like a master & ???
I have a hard time imagining a master alowing an apprentice to "cobble up" his work this way. Your thoughts of 2 time periods would fit, Iimho

Puffer

charles starks
03-26-2008, 05:12 PM
IMO the "crude" work on the above piece seems to have been done by a different person (apprentice?), evidenced by the fine design and execution of the rosette and the lettering surrounding it. The pig is intruding on the lettering, which I assume (and we all know what that means!) the master would not do. This seems to me to have been done by two people, and maybe the ornamentation was not done at the same time; possibly years apart?

you could very well be right , that section as well as t maybe the off sideplate side doesnt really match the rest of the work in quality or in theam style does it .
MMM very good points

puffer
03-26-2008, 07:53 PM
Chas, You use the term "CELTIC & since you also refer to the "book of Kells",
I"ASSUME" you are referring to the IRISH not the Highland Scots. Because, their art forms do differ. I feel that we must ABANDON looking @ "weapons" for "Celtic" designs.

Search as I may, I could find NO "Celtic art work on Irish weapons ( Note- there may be some, but I have yet to find them.)
Here is an Irish dagger http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/untitled-3.jpg (note- this dagger, as well as the Irish swords, are influenced by the Vikings -- more in the following post )

I did find a "Celtic" designs in the Highland weapons though.
1. Swords + NONE
2. Guns + an occational "thistle"
3. Daggers/Dirks + NONE until the LATE 1600s, when the "Celtic Knot statrted to be added to the handle, & became traditional"
Picc #1-#3 Pre late 1600s, except one
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/pic_spot_dirks05.jpg
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/pic_spot_dirks04.jpg
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/pic_spot_dirks06.jpg
Pic #4 is a color pic of actual museum Scotish Daggers prior to the Late 1600s
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/Untitled-1-5.jpg
So were does that leave us ?? See my next post. :rolleyes: :seeya:

Puffer

puffer
03-26-2008, 09:02 PM
[quote=charles starks] This leads me to an even greater belief in completely different separations of styles between different countries
QUOTE]
Chas., IMHO, I agree, but I feel that while each country, had it's different styles" they were ADAPTATIONS of other countries influences.

I feel that the "UK" gives us a very good "periscope" into this line of reasoning.

In the "UK" we have basically 4 distinct countries/cultures. - Welsh, Irish, Highland Scot & British/Lowland Scot. For now I will not discuss the Welsh ( my sainted Welsh Grandmother, I hope will forgive me :peace: )
!. The British/Lowland Scot was primarily influenced by the French ( later by the Germans when they had a German King )
2. The Highland Scot, was influenced, by the Irish, Vikings, Etc, But developed their VERY OWN art style (clothing, Jewelry, weapons, even the Highland Scottish Bagpipe is their own adaptation. More later in another post :yesnod: )
3. The Irish., were most heavily influenced by the Vikings. ( weapons {swords & Daggers} & jewelry.
Here I am stepping out of my area of expertise ( as if I had one :rolleyes: :rolleyes: TWO of the most common "Irish Celtic" motifs are the thistle & the "Knot. But here are some examples of jewelry, I feel at least add weight to my statement.
This pic is of a Viking broach ( 9th-10th centry) - Thistle motif. The original was found in Sweden , but was common in Viking jewelry.
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/Small20Thistle_t.jpg
This pic is also of a Viking broach ( 8th-12th centry) "Knot" motif & the original was found in russia.Again a very common Viking motif
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/Quoit_Brooch_t.jpg
Here are 2 Irish Broaches dating from about the same time ( note these are accurate copies of originals)
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/roscrea_silver_t.jpg
http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/Bramble_tt.jpg


Your thoughts ???

Puffer

Barry Lee Hands
03-26-2008, 09:29 PM
The Boucher engraving is in fact an etching.
Etchings are often refered to as engravings.

charles starks
03-26-2008, 09:41 PM
well i can tell you the engravings in these paterns are not simple in any way . the size also of these items are very small making the engraving I would think even a greater challabe for the time period

The Boucher engraving is in fact an etching.
Etchings are often refered to as engravings.
were not some even burns of a sorts . I seem to recall reading of an very early type of photograph that was also called an engraving but used a light source in a way to burn the plate .
but your point is well taken

Danny C
04-03-2008, 03:37 PM
Seems like everyone liked this thread - even though other threads were "technically" more attractive.

Mcahron
04-03-2008, 06:23 PM
Got my vote.Cool thread:cheers2:

puffer
04-03-2008, 09:11 PM
I have been attempting to get my thoughts & info together, to address the ?? of the developement & the maintaining of the art of engraving in a culture. As you have noticed, I have been posting examples of "Scottish Highland" works, primarily, guns. There is a reason. I hope this weekend I will be able to but some of it together for your comments.

I will be concintrating mainly on the engraving on the "Scottish Highland Steel" pistol
Here are a couple of pictures
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/MacLeodPistolRightFull.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/untitled-4.jpg
missing pics

Puffer

Roger Bleile
04-03-2008, 09:35 PM
Returning to the original premise of this thread, I must recommend THE ART OF GUN ENGRAVING by Claude Gaier and Pietro Sabatti, Knickerbocker Press, 1999, ISBN: 1-57715-087-2. This book, for those who have or can get it, will answer most of the questions posed here on the styles and evolution of gun decoration from the matchlock to the present. I was tempted to post quotes from this wonderful book as this thread progressed but decided that I would end up trying to quote 70% of the book. For those truely interested in the history and evolution of arms decoration I can not recommend this book too highly. Also included are detailed pictures of work by some of the best contemporary artists including Alain Lovenberg and Phil Coggen.

Roger

charles starks
04-04-2008, 07:37 AM
Returning to the original premise of this thread, I must recommend THE ART OF GUN ENGRAVING by Claude Gaier and Pietro Sabatti, Knickerbocker Press, 1999, ISBN: 1-57715-087-2. This book, for those who have or can get it, will answer most of the questions posed here on the styles and evolution of gun decoration from the matchlock to the present. I was tempted to post quotes from this wonderful book as this thread progressed but decided that I would end up trying to quote 70% of the book. For those truely interested in the history and evolution of arms decoration I can not recommend this book too highly. Also included are detailed pictures of work by some of the best contemporary artists including Alain Lovenberg and Phil Coggen.

Roger

roger is correct , its a very good book and i also have it as part of my research into the weapons and their development .the original premise of this thread was to discuss and show the changes in the different styles of engraving on everything from weapons to household items , how it change , why it changed , as well as the differences we see in compressions of today’s works .
I think this also facilitates a better understanding of our past and the social changes that occurred and how those changes related to the art itself . By doing such I think we also see how much this style of art changed from region to region

rod
04-04-2008, 10:04 AM
Puffer,

Thank you for a very interesting overview!

What are your thoughts on the distinctive design of the Highland pistol with its unprotected trigger? Were these made only in Doone and Inverness?

Have you any very close-up pictures of the Tara Broach? We know that it is small, and I have studied it from outside its glass case in Dublin, but the best photos I have in books do not do justice to the detail , especilally the wound gold wire ornamentation.

best

Rod

puffer
04-04-2008, 05:17 PM
Puffer,

Thank you for a very interesting overview!

What are your thoughts on the distinctive design of the Highland pistol with its unprotected trigger? Were these made only in Doone and Inverness?

best

Rod

Rod, There are several theories on this. Some feel that it was addopted so that it could be fired from the "targe" hand, while holding the "targe". Others feel that wae because it was "quicker" to fire, when "snatched from the belt, bardic, or shoulder strap. Maybe both & then some. No, Although Doune & the surronding area is best known for this style pistol, Edenbourgh, Glascow & even Birmingham England ( later on) Yet the "unprotected" trigger remained ( even on the "cheap Gov. issue (1766-1788 Note this is the only one that had NO Engraving )

This "style of pistol occupies a unique position in the history of pistols for many reasons,( including the "art" of engraving.) I will touch on some of these, when I do my post.

Gobbler
04-04-2008, 08:32 PM
I have to say this is a great thread // I have been reading so much that I haven't even had time to give any input // you guys have some really good info

Puffer you may have said earlier and I missed it but Do you see a perticular style of engraving on the Scottish pistols and do you see
any unique changes over a certain time frame

Thanks

puffer
04-04-2008, 08:57 PM
I have to say this is a great thread // I have been reading so much that I haven't even had time to give any input // you guys have some really good info

Puffer you may have said earlier and I missed it but Do you see a perticular style of engraving on the Scottish pistols and do you see
any unique changes over a certain time frame

Thanks

In my next serries of posts I will address that ???
For now let me say 1. Yes & no ( i hope the pics I will show will encourage the engravers to help out.)
2. no IMHO & that is one of the interesting points I have observed

Puffer

puffer
04-05-2008, 03:55 PM
As I "promised, I would start posting my " Core thoughts" on the "general ?? we are considering. I will be posting this in "bite size segments" starting with an over view. & ending ( ???) with the engraving itself.

Some things I HOPE you will conceder.
1. PLEASE bear with me.
a. I am not an authority in any of the areas I am addressing. I am only sharing what I see. Plus even that is what others have assisted me in.
b. I will be starting out with "history" which I realize, many of you may not be interested in, BUT i feel is a VERY important part of the ?? Hopefully, some of you will agree ( or disagree) with me & contribute your thoughts.
c. I am posting this to LEARN ( not to assist Chas. in "winning :smilielol5:

OVERVIEW--
I. In order to understand the development ( rise & decline etc) of an art form ( which engraving is ) understanding the "Culture (historical time frame etc.) is crucial.
II. Because of the immensity of the task, I have decide to narrow it down to a very small, bite size segment.
A. W. Europe then to the "British Islands" ( mid 1600-late 1700 ) Here is a map http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/LocationBritishIsles.png
1. The British Islands, were basically segmented into 4 general areas. Wales, Ireland, Scotland, & Britain. Each had it's own culture ( one, Scotland had 2 distinct cultures. Lowland & Highland. )
B. The next step was to narrow it down farther - Scotland.
2. As I mentioned above, Scotland had 2 distinct cultures ( Lowland & Highland) Here is a map of the 2 geographical locations.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/map.jpg
missing pics

a.some pertinent thoughts on the Lowland culture
1. The culture was basically "British" -- Language was "British ( Scots English )(the "educated spoke French also) -- ( note, "British "culture was primarily their own adaptation of French # @ times "German influences) Clothing was "British -- Art was "British" -- Weapons were "British" Etc.
2. The Economic POWER was located here.
3. The Political POWER was here ( a side note that may "shock you ) is that the 4 major heros in Scottis history, were LOWLANDERS ( The Bruce, Wallace, James Douglas ( the Black Douglas) & "Bonney Prince Charles")

I am going to take a break hre, PLEASE comment. The next post will be the HIGHLANDERs

Puffer

puffer
04-06-2008, 06:05 PM
I will now narrow it down farther, to the Highland culture.

NOTES
1. My "thoughts" on this are basic & somewhat general.
2. Our modern "concepts" of the Highland culture, is a ROMANTICIZED version, Dating from the Victorian times. (similar to our American idea of the "cowboy & mountain man" :jaw: :jaw:

Why the Highlanders ???
In spite of all the warfare,internal turmoil, out side influences, economics, politics, etc. that made major changes in their neighbors during the 150-200 years, I have selected, they changed very little.

Introduction to the Highland culture
I. Language
A. Primary - Scottish Gaelic - although "related to the language spoken by the Irish, it was quite different.
B. Some spoke "Highland English" but it was greatly different than the form of "English" spoken by the Lowland Scots.

II.Clothing
A. the Tartan Great" KILT- this maybe one of the most identifiable item, we associate with the Highlander. (note, the "small kilt ( the skirt style was a VERY late development. Many feel it was a Lowland "invention &definitely "popularized by the Victorian English
B Pants - pants were worn ( called "thews" ) often "plaid" )

III. Economics - The Highlands were very poor. They had very little industry, if any. What "wealth" that did exist, was in the "hands of the "Lairds" (see below.

IV. Political Power
A. THE CLAN ( family) This was an ever changing, confusing flow of alliances ( just try to find you Highland Clan Name, Sept ( adopted, sometimes perminate often temporary) Name. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
B. The head of a clan was called a Laird who held his power because of wealth ( mostly land), Alliances ( very tenuous at best) & his ability to SURVIVE ( his own kin, his own "clansmen", other Lairds, even "kings)
C. Scottish Kings :willy_nilly:
1. All were Lowlander or ??
2. Some accepted the "King's" authority, some did not.
3. Alliances change (often in the middle of a battle)
D. ARMS ( I am offering this , because it reflects the "uniqueness" of the Highland culture, & it leads to my the next Major step in "narrowing this all down. The Highland weapons, although fall into the same general genre as their neighbor, & may have started out similar, but the Highlander, not only made their own changes, BUT clung to them LONG after others moved on.
1. Swords.
A. Basket Hilt Back sword & Broad sword- Although genre of the Basket hilt sword (broad sword & back sword ) was Western European & used by the English, The Highland version was different
Here is a pic of an example of a "lowland/English one. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/Big-Early-Basket.jpg
Here an example of a Highland one http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/normal_evans20basket202.jpg

You will note that the Highland one is far more "massive. ( although there are many variations, they all are "massive" )
even though others moved onto other forms ( the rapier
long sword, saber etc, the Scots DID NOT

B. DAGGERS ( the Highland Scots called them "DIRKS"

Notes -
1. I will limit this to some of those, whose hilts lack "cross bars'"

2. I will show 2 general types
a. Those carried during the days of Armour ( when full Armour was worn.)
b. " " when only "partial" or no armour was worn.
c. Daggers were carried by most common men into battle, But to the Highlander, it became a SYMBOL of who he was.

Days of "ARMOUR
1. Blade length = 12- 14 +++" & very pointed.
2. The "BALLOCK" hilt
This hilt style is very ancient & was a style used throughout Europe.Here is a picture of some surviving hilts
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/Untitled-1-1.jpg
3, This was not the "predominate" style Here is an example of an "Irish" dagger. http://www.engravingschool.com/forum-pics/Scottish%20pistols/SP1/nateb_dagg_ia_skean_a.jpg

I think you can, by looking @ the bottom of the hilt why the name
( no offense intended Ladies)

NOTE - The Highland Scot DID retain this style of hilt.


Days of "partial" or no Armour
1. Blade length 10" or less ( The Highland blade remained about 12"- 14" or longer
2. The "ballock" was gone ( except for the Highland Scot.) here is an "Irish" dagger from this time
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/nateb_dagg_ia_skean_a.jpg

Not only did the Highlander persist in carrying this style, but did so until "modern" times here is a picture of a couple of good representative Highland "Dirks" from the Jacobean times ( note these are accurate reproductions
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/Untitled-1llll.jpg

I need a break, I imagine you also do. Hopefully you will find this of interesting & add your thoughts

Puffer

charles starks
04-07-2008, 07:21 AM
Have you any very close-up pictures of the Tara Broach? We know that it is small, and I have studied it from outside its glass case in Dublin, but the best photos I have in books do not do justice to the detail , especilally the wound gold wire ornamentation.


Now there is a good example. The item is small , its very VERY old a person would need very good eyes with no magnifying equipment to do that item. Hopefully someone will have a good clear photo they can post .

Ok lets see puffer , I think im following you here .
What im getting is that while many of the Scottish items have English influences , they are also an application all in their own .most certainly concerning the knots and intricate styles which seem to not have followed the same demise as other forms during that time period .

also it seems that these works also were more in the hands of common folks as well as the wealthy
would that be correct .

I would also say that there seems to be a resurgence in these styles recently for decorations .

puffer
04-07-2008, 06:44 PM
Chas., Yes, you are basicly correct at least in the area of swords & daggers ( poss. jewelry as to the English influence, BUT do not foroet the "Celtic" influenc of the Irish

NOTE - in my next 2 segments though,I will show an item ( The Highland Scots all metal Pistol ) which DOES NOT seem to be influenced, at least in design, to have been influenced from the outside Plus the ENGRAVING I hope will engorage the engravers to help in identifying the influences.

As to the "common man & the wealthy, It appears that the differences were, as one would expect, be in the amount of decoration, materials used . quality etc.

As to the "modern" revival, yes, Scottish Highland "stuff" is ALL THE RAGE. But most of it is "romantisized IMHO

Puffer

Marcus Hunt
04-08-2008, 11:07 AM
1. The British Islands, were basically segmented into 4 general areas. Wales, Ireland, Scotland, & Britain. Each had it's own culture ( one, Scotland had 2 distinct cultures. Lowland & Highland. )
B. The next step was to narrow it down farther - Scotland.
2. As I mentioned above, Scotland had 2 distinct cultures ( Lowland & Highland) Here is a map of the 2 geographical locations. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/Scottish%20pistols/SP1/map.jpg
a.some pertinent thoughts on the Lowland culture
1. The culture was basically "British" -- Language was "British ( Scots English )(the "educated spoke French also) -- ( note, "British "culture was primarily their own adaptation of French # @ times "German influences) Clothing was "British -- Art was "British" -- Weapons were "British" Etc.
2. The Economic POWER was located here.
3. The Political POWER was here ( a side note that may "shock you ) is that the 4 major heros in Scottis history, were LOWLANDERS ( The Bruce, Wallace, James Douglas ( the Black Douglas) & "Bonney Prince Charles")

I am going to take a break hre, PLEASE comment. The next post will be the HIGHLANDERs

Puffer

Hi Puffer,

I just thought I'd better correct some of your terminology if you'd kindly allow me to as it may lead to a better understanding of what you are trying to put across.

Firstly, the British Isles as you correctly state are a collection of islands spanning from the Channel Islands off the coast of France to the Shetlands in the far North Sea. The smaller of the two main islands contains two countries; Eire and Northern Ireland or Ulster. The larger of the islands contains Wales, Scotland and England not Britain. Britain was formed in 1707 by The Act of Union which brought the 2 Parliaments of England and Scotland together. Wales is a 'principality' in that it has no king/queen of it's own but does have the Prince of Wales (a bit like Monaco) and Ireland, again not having royalty as it's head of state, was a province. These 4 countries came together in economic union to from Great Britain and eventually the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as it is today.

Secondly, Britain being a sea going nation, and having been invaded countless times during it's history, has many influences in it's arts. For example, that which is considered 'Celtic' has influences/cross overs in the Pictish and Viking arts.

I could go on but at the moment am pressed for time but I hope this clarifies some of the geography.

Gravy
04-08-2008, 03:54 PM
The smaller of the two main islands contains two countries; Eire and Northern Ireland or Ulster.


Northern Ireland and Ulster are two entirely different geographic regions: Ulster is one of the four Irish provences and is comprised of the nine counties of Antrim, Armagh, Cavan, Donegal, Down, Fermanagh, Londonderry, Monaghan and Tyrone whereas Northern Ireland is comprised of the six counties of Antrim, Armagh, Down, Fermanagh, Londonderry and Tyrone.

puffer
04-08-2008, 04:29 PM
Gentlemen, THANK YOU :highfive: for your imput. You are correct.

In my attempt to give some isight to were I am heading, I did not make it as clear as I should have, in that I was "segregating" according to "CULTURES" not countries. Also I was being, VERY gerneral.
Again thank you.

Puffer

puffer
04-08-2008, 04:46 PM
Hi Puffer,

Secondly, Britain being a sea going nation, and having been invaded countless times during it's history, has many influences in it's arts. For example, that which is considered 'Celtic' has influences/cross overs in the Pictish and Viking arts.

.

This, IMHO is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT in the question that we are locking at. Not only in relationship to The "British Islands" but in any discussion, trying to understand the dynamics (creation, acceptance, demise & resurgence, of it's arts.

My next "major" post is going to present a "UNIQUE" "CANVAS" That one form of ENGRAVING that the Highland Scots used. Then I will present some of that ENGRAVING.

It is my HOPE, that you individuals, who are engravers will :help: by
1. Identifying the motifs, & styles
2. the possible influences
3. The techniques

Puffer

Big-Un
04-08-2008, 09:25 PM
What happened to the pictures....all those posted seem to have been dumped by photobucket? I'M MISSING OUT AND CAN'T STAND NOT GETTING EDUCATED!!!!!!!

Danny C
04-09-2008, 08:43 AM
What Happened To The Pics?

I Don't See Them They Have Been Moved Or Deleted

Marcus Hunt
04-09-2008, 08:52 AM
Hi Puffer, the reason I tried to correct your listing of the British Isles is that I happen to be English (and proud of it) and you made the mistake of listing England as Britain which it is not. For better or worse the English have dominated these islands and I think you were trying to say that the biggest influences on culture since the middle ages and until the Act of Union were English not British. I agree that Scottish arts and crafts have followed their own evolution but what I was trying to point out was the cross-cultural influences which are evident due to the fact that the British have travelled and traded far and wide and not just huddled on their island.

This is a fascinating thread and Puffer, thank you very much for your contribution; I'm eager to see where it goes. Unfortunately, like Big Un I can't see some of the pictures either (dumped by Photobucket) which is very disappointing.

charles starks
04-09-2008, 02:19 PM
ya puffer , you need to check your photo bucket . alot of the photos you posted have been dropped

puffer
04-09-2008, 05:04 PM
SORRY , I am fairly new @ using "photo bucket" & I did some "rearranging" in order to do my next series of posts. :smash: I will try to go back through my prior posts & see if I can figure out what is missing.

If anyone has a particular picture or pictures that they want me to try and repost I will try

Puffer

Steve Lindsay
04-09-2008, 05:25 PM
Hi Puffer, Right click where an image was and click "properties" from the popup and you can see the name of what the file was. See if you can re-upload them to photobucket to get them showing on the forum again. Once they are back I can go through and right click each picture, save it to my hard disk, then upload and host them on engravingschool.com. I could then edit each post that has pictures and change the url it is pointing to. This thread is super. It would be sad not to have the pictures that go with it. I hope it will be easy and you can just re-upload them to photobucket.

puffer
04-09-2008, 05:49 PM
Hi Puffer, Right click where an image was and click "properties" from the popup and you can see the name of what the file was. See if you can re-upload them to photobucket to get them showing on the forum again. Once they are back I can go through and right click each picture, save it to my hard disk, then upload and host them on engravingschool.com. I could then edit each post that has pictures and change the url it is pointing to. This thread is super. It would be sad not to have the pictures that go with it. I hope it will be easy and you can just re-upload them to photobucket.

Steve, thank you. I tried to get them from "photo Bucket into the original pos, but to no avail. If I sent them to you via a PM, could you reinsert them for me ????

The other alternative is to do a new post & refer back to the page it was on.
Please advise

Puffer

charles starks
04-09-2008, 06:58 PM
puffer , if you go back to the posts that are missing photos , just click on the edit button . then go to the photo and insert the new URL from photo bucket.
for future reference remember anytime you change , move or delete a photo from photo bucket , it will remove that photo in any and all post you have used it in , anywhere on the net

puffer
04-09-2008, 07:30 PM
puffer , if you go back to the posts that are missing photos , just click on the edit button . then go to the photo and insert the new URL from photo bucket.
for future reference remember anytime you change , move or delete a photo from photo bucket , it will remove that photo in any and all post you have used it in , anywhere on the net

Thought of that, but the "EDIT" button, is missing on these earlier posts.:banghead: :banghead:

Puffer

charles starks
04-09-2008, 08:17 PM
how about just re posting the photos with a note on each about what post they go to ?
that should work i would think

Steve Lindsay
04-09-2008, 09:40 PM
Hi Puffer,
The forum is set so that after five days the edit button goes away but I should still be able to get in to them. However, we wouldn't need to edit the URLs in the posts if the pictures with the same file names are up-loaded back to your account in photobucket. The posts will show the pictures without needing to edit since they are already pointing at the Puffer's photobucket. If that doesn't work I can use the links and files that you emailed to me tonight then edit the url in the posts. Try the re-uploading them to photobucket first. That should be the easiest.

Steve Lindsay
04-09-2008, 09:50 PM
Puffer, I just realized there aren't all that many missing. The links that you emailed are already from photobucket, so you must have already up-loaded them. The url must be slightly different though since they don't show on the forum. Later tonight I can updated the URLs in the posts. That should do it. :)
Steve

Steve Lindsay
04-10-2008, 12:30 AM
All of the pics are now hosted on the engravingschool.com site except for these. If you can figure out what the pics were please just email them and I'll update the URLs. steve@lindsayengraving.com There is a lot of good information in this thread! :cheers2:


page 7, post 64 (2 pics missing) Charles Starks 1163445.jpg 1163448.jpg ( I believe they were the spoon pics)
page 12, post 111 (1 pic missing) Puffer Untitled-ccpost1.jpg
page 15, post 145 (2 pics missing) Puffer MacLeodPistolRightFull.jpg untitled.jpg
page 16, post 152 (2 pics missing) Puffer LocationBritishIsles.png map.jpg
page 16, post 153 (4 pics missing) Puffer normal_evans20basket202.jpg Big-Early-Basket.jpg untitled.jpg Untitled-1llll.jpg

john88
04-10-2008, 04:44 PM
i'm also amazed at the work that was done in that era of time. I've done die cutting and all types of engraving including guns jewelery and embossing but time and three dimensional computer machines have taken over nine tenths of this work. I've been retired for some time now. but i think the engravers to day do some wonderful work thanks for the photo's John D.

puffer
04-10-2008, 05:36 PM
Steve, thank you for your assistance,

I was also able to restore all but pg.7, which was Chas' & page 12 which was the cig. cases. ( I no longer have the files, but as time allows, I will try to find some examples., maybe someone can help ???

Puffer

charles starks
04-10-2008, 05:43 PM
to go along with Puffers examination of Celtic items , here is some examples from the Book of Kells showing how the Knots and layouts on a couple items were done .

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/documentation/bookofkells2.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/documentation/bookofkells1.jpg

puffer. i sent steve the two photos that i lost so they should be back up shortly .
thanks for your help here Mr Lindsay.

I would also bring up something about the English and their for lack of batter word , holding .
Because they did range so far in their trade , their work carries influences from many different contacts . So its not uncommon when we look closely at these early works to see those influences . So most certainly while the English effected the art and cultures of those other areas , they themselves also were greatly effected . Maybe to the point of losing a lot of cultural individualisms concerning art


I also think that when we look at other countries that had less world contact , their art including engravings hold more of a cultural individuality which appears to not be diluted to the existent of the larger more traveled nations of the time

puffer
04-10-2008, 05:53 PM
:whoo: Chas. I have got to get that book.

ENGRAVERS, keep tjis in mind, as it may help in my next posts.

Puffer

puffer
04-10-2008, 05:57 PM
Ladies & Gentlemen, since I messed up deleting, some pictures, I have decided to post my next post on narrowing it down - The CANVAS

Puffer

puffer
04-10-2008, 07:01 PM
The next step in narrowing this down, was to select a CANVAS, that would give us a idea of the Highland ENGRAVING art.

Although I had one in mind, I felt that I would attempt to find others . jewelry came to mind, but sadly to say, I was unable to find a a good selection of AUTHENTIC Highland Scottish jewelry from the time period (ca 1650-1800) If any of you out there has some AUTHENTIC examples, PLEASE post them. !!!!

Because of this I reverted back to my original idea. The ALL METAL FLINTLOCK HIGHLAND PISTOL specifically the "RAMSHORN (Scroll) BUTT"

Although the All metal flintlock Highland pistol was made in other configurations,the "Ramshorn, was the major one, & seems to offer the best CANVAS. Here is a picture showing a "Lobe Butt" ( top pistol) & a "Ramshorn"
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/Scottish%20pistols/SP1/CopyofCopyofUntitled-1.jpg


Some thoughts on the ALL METAL FLINTLOCK HIGHLAND PISTOL

I. It is considered "unique" in the genre of flintlock Pistols.
A. OVERALL DESIGN
B. THE FIRING MECHANISM

Note - because this subject is on ENGRAVING not Pistols, I would recommend that those who wish to learn more consult the following for basic information.
1.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/7f23_1.jpg
2.http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.com/forum/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=91&sid=0abedf959c8f197a6278e667a072b306

NOTE_- I am a moderator on this forum & I started this thread as a companion to the posts I was doing here. ( NOTE- it still is a work in "progress, as this is


C. The ALL METAL CONSTRUCTION gives the ENGRAVER, IMHO, the "PERFECT CANVAS", to exercise his/her art.
1. All the surviving examples of this pistol are engraved, even the plainest, EXCEPT one version of the pistol issued to the ROYAL Highland Regiments by the British Gov.
2. The Pistols were made in 2 basic metals (except the above mentioned Gov. issued, which were made in Bronze ( "gun metal")
a. BRASS http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/Scottish%20pistols/SP1/brassmurdoch.jpg
b. STEEL ( polished & "blued" )http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/Scottish%20pistols/SP1/Untitled-1-1.jpg

My next MAJOR post will feature the ENGRAVING. BUT here I need your HELP !!!!!!!!!!!!


I am now entering into an area that I FEEL VERY UNKNOWABLE. I can post examples, but I can not "interpret them.

1. How to sort ?????
2. What are the "motifs ?????
3. what are the antecedents ?????
a. other CULTURES ????
4, ENGRAVING TECHNIQUES employed ???
5. ETC< ETC
Puffer

charles starks
04-10-2008, 07:09 PM
for those interested in the above instructions , i would recommmend
1) the book of kells , or whats sometimes known as the Book of Columba
there is an online resource for this

2) Celtic art ; the methods of construction by George Bain .
this is an indepth look at design and layout . to include lettering styles.



well done puffer :painting:
now a question is this engraving IE the patterns something unique to the Scots or can we link this to other areas of the time that may have influenced them ?

puffer
04-10-2008, 07:37 PM
for those interested in the above instructions , i would recommmend
1) the book of kells , or whats sometimes known as the Book of Columba
there is an online resource for this

2) Celtic art ; the methods of construction by George Bain .
this is an indepth look at design and layout . to include lettering styles.



well done puffer :painting:
now a question is this engraving IE the patterns something unique to the Scots or can we link this to other areas of the time that may have influenced them ?

HANG IN THERE, my friend, I am heading your way, HOPEFULY with the assistence of others following this.

But first we must look @ the examples of the ENGAVING' Also the feed back on the oyjer ???????????

Puffer

Danny C
04-11-2008, 02:42 PM
I think your getting too complex for such a simple subject.

It is: Pick what you like. Learn about it. Imulate it. Done.

There is no all encompassing knowledge base that will thus allow you to accomplish anything.

Since you like 1700-1800's embleshments, then learn that style - for the specific area (land area - Scotland, England, etc) then "just do it".

You could study it to death, and accomplish nothing, but learned a lot.

JMO

charles starks
04-11-2008, 04:35 PM
well isnt that the real point ? to learn alot . with out having a strong base , without knowing from which one comes , without knowing the past we are all distended to simply keep re inventing the wheel and thinking we were the first to do so .
when someone asks about the art we do i think its a very good thing to be able to exsplain its roots , from where it comes.
if not then really are we not just making copies of copies ?

puffer
04-12-2008, 09:28 AM
well isnt that the real point ? to learn alot . with out having a strong base , without knowing from which one comes , without knowing the past we are all distended to simply keep re inventing the wheel and thinking we were the first to do so .
when someone asks about the art we do i think its a very good thing to be able to exsplain its roots , from where it comes.
if not then really are we not just making copies of copies ?

Just a couple of additional thoughts.


NOTE Danny, I hope that what I am about to say, will not offend you or any other individual that is following this thread :peace: ,but I felt that it might help explain why I am humbly offering the info I am, & why I am asking for assistance in the areas I did.

I. The PURPOSE of the ???? Chas. posed ( as I understand it.) The ??? challenged me, & in order to try to "answer" I personally need to follow the trail that have described in my prior posts. I realize that I may have bored some, BUT I have personally been excited by being able to pursue this. It has opened a WHOLE NEW WORLD to me. The world of ENGRAVING.

2. My personal involvement in the crafts & providing them to the consumer.
A. Black Powder/Muzzle loading & to some extent Scottish.
B. The craftsmen, that I have the pleasure to be associated with are some of the best in their fields.:WHO: They range from Gun makers ( Chas. is one ) Blade makers, Leather craftsmen, wood workers, clothing ect. The two things these craftsmen have in common,
1. VERY high quality products.
2. Attention to detail & representation of the customers requirements.
This requires RESEARCH.
Here is an example. I recently mentioned that I REALLY hoped some day to have a "custom made" Dagger/Dirk. (note, these cost $$$$ & in order to finance this "desire, I was going to have to sell a few things. :eek: ) BUT 2 individuals in my local club, stated that they would like to provide me with one as a "PROJECT ( :WHO: Friends are where it's at ) The thing was, neither of these men had experience in this genre.
a. The blade & handle ( as I pictured before ) is somewhat complicated & the knife maker needed to do a LOT of research, both as to style, but also the techniques in making it.
b. The sheath also posed some challenges to the man who was going to craft it, & again, research was required.

I guess the major ?? is, what customer base are we addressing. The general (uninformed) or those who wish a quality product.
here is an example of my take on this
This Sporran is a common type offered The cost is appox. $200.00
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/pic4353dd73f1b4b.jpg

This picture is one that I made recently made ( note the "rifleman's "badge is not shown as it would be mounted nor is it the one actually used. (it is an inexpensive example.) The cost to the customer (he provided the actual "badge used ) $250.00 ( the main fur is Beaver & the other is a red fox tail .http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/CopyofCopyofIMG_0128.jpg

Thank you for your forbearance & allowing me to share :highfive:

Puffer

puffer
04-12-2008, 11:16 AM
I just received an email that I feel that I should share both the ?? & my answer.
??? - " Puffer, why the tag name and the avatar ? "

Answer - The reason for the "tag name" was NOT to hide my IDENTITY. I used it simply out of habit. And when I initially started to post, I had no idea that I would become as involved as I have.:smilielol5:


I exist in 2 worlds
1. The every day world ( work ( $ = paying the bills ), research, training ( firearms instructor & Range Safety Officer , etc.) Here I go by my given name JACK W. ENGLUND
2. The "Black/Powder Muzzle Loading" world. ("My major "hobby") It is here ( At events, on the web, etc ) that I am Known as PUFFER. Even my close friends, most often address me as Puffer, instead of Jack.:yesnod:
BTW - "name tags" are either ones the individual choses or are given to them by others in the "community" They fall into basic types,
a. Discribes the person
b. "highlights a SPECIFIC character trait, or highlights an "embarrassing moment." :sbrug: I have a few that fall into this catagory :jaw: And NO!! Chas. ( & the others looking @ this, from the BP/ML) this is not a licence to disclose the other names :doh: :laughing:

Oh, yes, the AVATAR. I chose this from is a series of photos that were taken a couple of years ago, @ a "major" event. Here I was doing what I often do ( & enjoy !!!) SHARING what little I know with others ( in this case, a group of "newbes", standing in the typical PNW "drizzle" listeng to the "Old Man" go on"
Here is another picture, of me doing this ( in this case the 2 on the right, in the picture, are respected Historical researchers & presenters from Ft. Nisqually ( a reconstructed Hudson Bay Co. Post ) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/CopyofGrmm_Rondy_1.jpg

I realize that this is TOTALLY off subject SORRY !!!

Puffer ( aka - JACK )

puffer
04-12-2008, 06:18 PM
This next series of posts will show a few examples of the Engraver's art on the Highland Scottish All Metal pistol CANVAS.

All the pictures are from, museum sites, Auction sites, private collections, & m any from individuals who have over time sent me examples ( such as Pete 2@ Middlesex Village Trading Co. ) For those interested, here is an example of a site
http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=5104037&uid=717149

As I indicated before, all the surviving pistols ( I know of ) EXCEPT some of the British Gov. Issue, had some engraving on them.

The first series are pistols that I "classify as "PLAIN" & would have been available to those who could afford a pistol ( few were. Although the "clan chiefs" did supply some ) or in the case of some of the "nicer" ones, the "middle Class ??

Note, you will notice the engraving is "faint" on 2 of these pictures. Many of the surviving examples of the "plainer" pistols seem to be in this condition. These guns were used & show the wear. Also COULD the engraving it'self been at fault ???
Take a look & PLEASE comment on the aforementioned ??? (previouse post)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/w2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/w.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/w1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/Scottish%20pistols/JOHN_FORBES_.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/w31.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/Scottish%20pistols/MacLeodPistolLockFull.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/Scottish%20pistols/MacLeodPistolMuzzleR.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/Scottish%20pistols/MacLeodPistolButt.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/Untitled-r1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/r12.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/a4jpg.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/a5.jpg

Thank you for your help

Puffer

PS_Bond
04-14-2008, 04:10 AM
...( note the "rifleman's "badge is not shown as it would be mounted nor is it the one actually used. (it is an inexpensive example.)...

The silver bugle is (was) the cap badge of the Light Infantry regiments - now found as part of the dress of The Rifles; until I went and checked, I hadn't realised there had been any Scottish LI regiments. Learn something new every day :)

http://www.lightinfantry.org.uk

charles starks
04-14-2008, 08:05 AM
Let me see here if I can simplify what puffer is saying , if I understand him correctly .
We know that these items and the styles used have changed through the years .
In todays world , we see things that we like and we simply replicate them because we like the looks .

However what this does is take the item completely out of context for how and why the item was displayed or used . For example lets say we like the common English style of engraving that’s been posted in this thread . Would this be correct on one of the pistols puffer has so graciously posted ?

IMO while it would most certainly be nice , it would take the item completely out of context .
The same could be said for using the same type of engraving on say an American mad rifle of the mid 18th century . Most certainly again the work would be wonderful but it would not be correct for a time period and place where the engraving had change to a very simple , often time crude type of work . wouldn’t it be as out of place as using that simple type of engraving on a depiction of a higher end English or French serving platter or other item .

So by looking back we can see these changes and if we understand that in their context they are very much different . In doing that research we also can explain to the costumer how a given item may have been used and somewhat the context of that use , as well as all the fascinating history surrounding that item .
I think to often we in today’s world forget that we are tomorrows history . 200 years from now someone could very well be looking back at a item we did our work on and asking the very same thing by saying :WOW look at this . What made the change , how did this work change , how did they do that , how does the type of work fit into the scheme of changing times .

puffer
04-14-2008, 05:34 PM
The silver bugle is (was) the cap badge of the Light Infantry regiments - now found as part of the dress of The Rifles; until I went and checked, I hadn't realised there had been any Scottish LI regiments. Learn something new every day :)

http://www.lightinfantry.org.uk

Yes there were & are. :hurray:

Here is a picture of a Cameron cap badge I just ordered

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/Cameronianswm.jpg

BTW look for a PM or email from me

Puffer

Danny C
04-15-2008, 08:51 AM
Thanks for the clarification.

PS as far as it being "off topic" about your hobbies, you (we) could move to the WATER COOLER and be happly engaged in telling what we do as Work or Fun (or if really fortunate) both at the same time.

puffer
04-15-2008, 04:36 PM
PS as far as it being "off topic" about your hobbies, you (we) could move to the WATER COOLER and be happly engaged in telling what we do as Work or Fun (or if really fortunate) both at the same time.

Danny, You are CORRECT, SORRY

Puffer

puffer
04-19-2008, 09:23 AM
Now we can move on to some of the "nicer" examples of the engraver's art.
These pistols would be owned by those of "means"

The first 3, although made by different makers & in different localities, have (IMHO) VERY similar designs.
1. the 1st 2 are from the Doune area. ( ca. 1700 - 1720 ??) IMHO, the top pistol is of the earliest date.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/-1.jpg

2. This is a pistol made in Glasgow by Patrick Buchanan (ca. 1717-1724 )
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/a1b.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/a1.jpg

:help: :help: Does anyone have any THOUGHTS on
1.The designs themselves ???
2. Possible "INFLUENCES" ???
2. How the ENGRAVING was done ???

Thank you

Puffer

Roger Bleile
04-19-2008, 10:58 AM
Does anyone have any THOUGHTS on
1.The designs themselves ???
2. Possible "INFLUENCES" ???
2. How the ENGRAVING was done ???
Puffer

Thoughts: I have always wondered why most engraving on Scottish all metal pistols looked so crude relative to the engraving on guns of the same era made in England and France. I have seen a very few Scottish pistols that were finely decorated but I think they are a rare example.

Now you might answer that the crude looking work is done on pistols of lower quality just to get some decoration on the piece and keep it from looking so plain. My answer to that is that the crude appearance of the engraving is due to poorly laid out designs not a lack of skill in the actual engraving. That said, it takes no longer to engrave a poor design than a good one. I am not refering to the ammount of coverage or shading cuts. What I mean is that it takes no longer to cut a scroll with a uniform, concentric backbone than to cut one with a backbone full of elbows and flat spots. The same goes for geometric shapes such as the circle with a star in it on the Buchanan pistol shown. Also note the poorly laid out makers name.

Perhaps the answer is that in Scotland the maker had to do his own engraving yet he was never apprenticed as an engraver and the makers discovered that as long as the piece was covered by lots of decoration it was good enough for the masses. This is still going on to some degree today. Take a look at various gun auction and sale sites on the web and search "engraved." You will find along with many well-executed guns some of the crudest, most ill conceived engraving listed in glowing terms by the seller.

As far as the designs themselves and influences, other than thistles and other purely Scottish motifs, I think they come from the same influences as most gun decoration throughout history. Dr. Harris in his book "Gun Engraving as a Decorative Art" has stated a pretty good case for the influences as coming from Islamic art as far as the scroll, leaf, and geometric patterns are concerned. Lots of border work, even today, goes back to ancient Greek and Roman fretwork found in architecture.

How was the engraving done? The same way all engraving of the time was done. Since the metals were largely bronze, brass, and iron most work could be accomplished by a graver (burin/push graver) however some was done with hammer and chisel.

Just my opinions. What say you?

Roger

charles starks
04-20-2008, 08:38 AM
i think probably your correct roger .
While I most certainly am not an accomplished graver myself , layout is important regardless of what we do, be it wood carving , or the complete building of an item .
I also cant help but wonder if maybe the political climate of the time played a roll in the Scottish items .
This im thinking would have been different then what we talked about earlier in this thread with the fall of the autocracy in many countries.
Could the standing of the Scots and Irish in and outside England at the time have played a roll ?. I think it very mush could have especially concerning mounting these examples from all iron .
We know that in the time frame these pistols were made England was starving for iron importing most all of it from across the channel .
As such I cant help but wonder if mounting these such pieces in all iron was not only an attempt a durability . As puffer stated ,the weapon was designed to be simply discarded and picked up after the fact . This would IMO have made the chances of this weapon being when later retrieved , still very serviceable .but also I cant help but think this would also have been a slap in the face to the government that they may have saw as holding their people back.

If this was true , then could the engraving itself also been secondary and when speaking of its quality and really nothing more then just a way of elevating the status of a more common person .
Basically what im trying to get at is maybe the engraving , while lacking in its details and proper layout , was more based on just being engraved , with more of a rebellion to the peoples standing of the time .
Could this really have been making a statement such as saying . Here is an example of our people , we are unique , we are strong . There is nothing delicate abut us .
In doing such would not this style while lacking, produced an item that would instantaneously be identified as being produced and done by a specific people . Identifying those people as individuals .

Another thing I wonder is if some of this engraving may not have been done by the owner themselves , not by the builder .?
Some of the work to me looks clearly to have been done after the fact such as the name on the last photo puffer provided as it doesn’t match the quality of the rest of the piece .
Could not also this explain some of the examples that have much lighter and more simple engravings

puffer
04-20-2008, 10:14 AM
:whoo: Gentlemen, Thank you for your THOUGHTS. I think we are "STARTING" to get some GOOD insight into this ????:yesnod: :yesnod:
MORE !!!

But before I add my simplistic thoughts, here some more to consider.

The next 2 pictures are pistols that were made for specific individuals & have a documented province.

1.This gun is one of a pair that was carried by Major Pitcairn @ Lexington, & poss. @ Bunker Hill ( Amer. Rev. War ) --- ( Note -- there is some controversy, but this is not the place to discuss this.) It was also carried by an Amer. officer ( as a spoil of war ) http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/PitcairnPistolFull3.jpg

2. This Pistol was made for high NW Co. Official, William McGillway, ( Montreal Canada ) By Jn. Murdoch of Doune.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/ROM2006_6518_1.jpg

Puffer

puffer
04-20-2008, 10:24 AM
Here are a couple of "FINER" ENGRAVING. These are in addition to others I have posted.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/engravedscotrt.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/silverscotrt.jpg

Comments PLEASE

Puffer

puffer
04-20-2008, 10:37 AM
Another thing I wonder is if some of this engraving may not have been done by the owner themselves , not by the builder .?
Some of the work to me looks clearly to have been done after the fact such as the name on the last photo puffer provided as it doesn’t match the quality of the rest of the piece .
Could not also this explain some of the examples that have much lighter and more simple engravings

Good thought.

NOTE - a "good share" of the guns do not have a Maker's name engraved as a part of the "engraving.Often the maker put his/her "mark on the inside of the lock. But here are some that you might want to consider & COMMENT on.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/641-012_DSC02669.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/CopyofROM2006_6518_1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/No2026.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/SP2/TMURDOCH_.jpg

Puffer

puffer
04-28-2008, 06:13 PM
Wrapping up my thoughts

By isolating it to a very specific time frame & small culture + utilizing a specific it, here are my thoughts.

I. Although basically a "tribal" culture & very independent, did develop an "art identity" in the form of engraving on their "all metal" pistols.
II. The "MOTIFS" used seem to reflect their adaptation of the surrounding cultures.
A. The thistle & "knots", although often attributed to the Irish, seem also to be a basic Viking theme. ???
B. The other reoccurring, themes ??? IMHO from the English & French. ( NOTE - The one theme, I can not find in other engraving, I have seen, is the "STAR" ???

III. The engravers
A. These individuals seem to fall into 4 categories
1. The owners themselves
2. Gun makers who were not engravers, but put "engraving" on the guns because the buyer wanted it (lower income customers)
3. Gun makers who had engraving skills, but often were not "true" engravers (in the "ART") ("middle" income")
4. True Engravers, who were commissioned to do the work ( wealthy clientèle)

IV. The END of this art form. Here we can be fairly certain of the time frame
The major decline began in 1746, with the "Disarming Act" Although some of the "Sottish" gun makers still were producing their "art" for officers of the "Scottish Regiments",there were few. In 1782, with the repeal of the ACT, there was a "revival of interest in the "Highland" dress, but few "true" Highland pistols were made. In 1812, the last of the "GREAT" makers died, so did the "ART"

TODAY The "HIGHLAND MYTH" Most of what we see today as being "Highland" is a ROMANTICIZED idea that is ENGLISH & dates from King George, with the main "concepts coming from the time of Victoia,

So were does that leave the engraver of today ????
I. He/She can do the painstaking research & produce an AUTHENTIC HIGHLAND work
II. He/She can sucome to the MYTH & produce a "ROMANTICIZED" version

Puffer

charles starks
04-28-2008, 09:02 PM
thank you puffer , some good things to think on im sure

Roger Bleile
04-29-2008, 01:18 PM
Wrapping up my thoughts...
So were does that leave the engraver of today
I. He/She can do the painstaking research & produce an AUTHENTIC HIGHLAND work
II. He/She can sucome to the MYTH & produce a "ROMANTICIZED" version
Puffer

To paraphrase a quote from The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance "When the legend becomes fact engrave the legend."

Most customers prefer romanticized versions of historic things and if that is your customer you give it to them if you want to stay in business. On the other hand, if your customers are mainly "stitch Counter" reinactors you go authentic. In my experience the latter group is a relatively low dollar clientele. The other problem with reproducing crudely engraved arms is that I can't bring myself to engrave that way. Most experienced engravers today have struggled to cut scrollwork with smooth, concentric spirals not ones with elbows and flat spots. They cut leaves that look like styalized leaves, not a bunch of lumps. Once an engraver reaches this level he/she can't easily go back. Also the engraver has his/her reputation to consider. If a skilled engraver were to reproduce the naive work shown on many of these examples it would not in any way enhance his/her reputation. Quite the contrary! On the other hand, take a beginner engraver who's work is at the level of this historic work. The beginner would not have the skill to styalistically reproduce correctly. So there's the rub.

puffer
04-29-2008, 05:38 PM
To paraphrase a quote from The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance "When the legend becomes fact engrave the legend."

Most customers prefer romanticized versions of historic things and if that is your customer you give it to them if you want to stay in business. On the other hand, if your customers are mainly "stitch Counter" reinactors you go authentic. In my experience the latter group is a relatively low dollar clientele. The other problem with reproducing crudely engraved arms is that I can't bring myself to engrave that way. Most experienced engravers today have struggled to cut scrollwork with smooth, concentric spirals not ones with elbows and flat spots. They cut leaves that look like styalized leaves, not a bunch of lumps. Once an engraver reaches this level he/she can't easily go back. Also the engraver has his/her reputation to consider. If a skilled engraver were to reproduce the naive work shown on many of these examples it would not in any way enhance his/her reputation. Quite the contrary! On the other hand, take a beginner engraver who's work is at the level of this historic work. The beginner would not have the skill to styalistically reproduce correctly. So there's the rub.

Roger,I hope that you & the other ENGRAVERS did not take offense to my statements about the Engraver's choses.:peace: In fact I agree with you. It is the client that we must satisfy. But the point that I was attempting to make was that one has the chose of offering a client a "historically "accurate" reproduction or a romanticized one. But I do feel that the client should be made aware of the difference. It is then up to them.

BTW. A NOTE on Re-en actors. Or "stitch counters". You might be surprised @ the Clientèle ( do not forget that HISTORICAL "re-enacting covers a lot of genes & the $$$$ spent. Yes the majority, like our general society, are $$$ conscience, but there are many who are not. An example was a resent "Regency Ball" The cost of the "costume" of the couple, I went with, easely exceded $6,000.00 ( I have no idea of the value of the "museum" reproduction" jewelry she wore.) And they represented about the upper middle of those there.

Oh yes, the Scottish outfits ( Kilts = $800.00 + semi- custom Swords = 1,000) Dirks = $800.00 ( custom = 3-4 Xs)

Black powder/Muzzle loading. A top end "prduction" rifle = $1,200 - $3,000 A finely built, well carved ( with engraving) "Kentucky" can run $5,000 or more.

In closing, I would like to say YES !!! to your STATEMENT about CRAFTSMANSHIP. Whether an engraver, gun builder, leather worker etc. There are those who have spent countless hours refining their ART, & are constantly working to improve. These are the individuals that IMHO, any of us who are "growing, look to and yes, hope someday to acheive the leval of expertise. ( at best, @ least in my case, hope to some day own a creation done by them)

My friend, HOLD to your Standards.

Puffer

charles starks
04-29-2008, 09:46 PM
Yep just as puffer says . In fact those of us that produce those rifles in the 1000.00 -5000.00 range and much , much higher are often backed up at least a year on delivery . i know several well know builders of historically accurate pieces that are 3 years behind and referring folks to others.

As far as reputation . Reputation is in the eye of the beholder or beholders .
When it comes to stitch counter ? Well folks who are looking for that type of work know who and where to go to get it . In doing so those folks who provide such works find themselves with their own reputations of quality.

As far as low dollar .?
I don’t find that to be true at all . Take clothing
You can buy at machine sewn shirt of correct muzzling or Lenin for 30 to 40 bucks from most any trader .
However buy one that’s properly hand sewn , from a correct period pattern, of material in the proper weight and color ,,,, your going to pay 3 times the machine work .
The key really is to establish a reputation of being capable of producing that type of work ..
As you say though , you give the people what they want . Im the same with my rifles . I have roughly 250 to 300 hours in each piece. More with some models.
You want a hand made iron barrel instead of a machined one ,, no problem but stand back because the price just doubled
As such when people call and say they want a rifle built and then antiqued to look 250 years old ,I cringe .
I used to say nope I don’t do provide that as an option and suggest the customer do it themselves . I just couldn’t stand the idea of working so long on a piece and then beating it up . Then I started realizing that if the customer wants it that way and are willing to pay more for it ?

Same with the pistols that puffer has posted . While to a skilled engraver these pieces may be lacking . To the folks looking for such authenticity , they would command high dollar prices .
As far as the size of clientele?, well all one has to do is look at the decline of the participation in the simple rendezvous seen and the raise in participation in re-enactments and juried events . The major decline in and closing of companies producing production line, highly incorrect examples of rifles . Compared to the custom gun market which has boomed over the last 10 years


I also think that we are much more concerned about perfection today then they were 250 years ago . Everything from inletting to parts must be perfect, tight and within tolerances .
While its easy to show original pieces where this isn’t so concerning inletting of parts . We must remember these examples are 200 + years old and have wear. However when we look at hand made locks and their workings which often still show the quality of workman ship. They simply would not pass inspection today .
Folks today really want both worlds IE correct examples BUT the quality of today . Sometimes you simply cant have it both ways

Engravings also I think are in this same realm. Today we concern ourselves with perfect scrolls , Balanced layouts, fine clean lines .
While some of the engravers 200 years ago also did this , a vast majority , as has been shown , simply did not . However they produced examples that were still very pleasing to the eye .

So really maybe the reason we see the decline in the works that have been shown in this thread is more to a change of mindset by the artisans themselves more then anything else

Roger Bleile
04-30-2008, 04:24 PM
I don't want to get into a war of words here and didn't intend to offend anyone. I understand where you are coming from. One of my oldest and dearest friends is an 18th century reinactor and self described "stitch counter" who I have learned much from about all things from the period you are interested in.

When I mentioned low dollar... I was speaking in a relative sense regarding guns. I do work some work on cowboy action shooter type guns and also consider that a low dollar market. Generally most engravings on single actions and replica 1866's and 1873's run in the $750.00 to $2,500.00 range. Add to that the cost of a Colt SAA starting at about $1,500.00 or a Uberti rifle at about $1,000.00 and you have a range of $1,750.00 to about $4,000.00 for the whole item.

When you look at some of the shotguns and double rifles shown on this site and the Engravers Cafe site made by James Purdy, Holland & Holland, P.V. Nelson and so forth you will be looking at a "high dollar" market. The basic bespoke gun is in the $60,000.00 to $100,000.00 range and then the engraving can take it to a quarter million or better. One gun engraved by Phil Coggen is presently for sale at an asking price of $350,000.00! That is what I mean by high dollar.

By the way, It looks like this could be the winning thread in the contest with over 200 posts! Charles has started an excellent discussion on a topic that is apparently of great interest (and diverse opinions) here.

Roger

puffer
04-30-2008, 05:10 PM
I don't want to get into a war of words here and didn't intend to offend anyone. I understand where you are coming from. One of my oldest and dearest friends is an 18th century reinactor and self described "stitch counter" who I have learned much from about all things from the period you are interested in.

When I mentioned low dollar... I was speaking in a relative sense regarding guns. I do work some work on cowboy action shooter type guns and also consider that a low dollar market. Generally most engravings on single actions and replica 1866's and 1873's run in the $750.00 to $2,500.00 range. Add to that the cost of a Colt SAA starting at about $1,500.00 or a Uberti rifle at about $1,000.00 and you have a range of $1,750.00 to about $4,000.00 for the whole item.

When you look at some of the shotguns and double rifles shown on this site and the Engravers Cafe site made by James Purdy, Holland & Holland, P.V. Nelson and so forth you will be looking at a "high dollar" market. The basic bespoke gun is in the $60,000.00 to $100,000.00 range and then the engraving can take it to a quarter million or better. One gun engraved by Phil Coggen is presently for sale at an asking price of $350,000.00! That is what I mean by high dollar.

By the way, It looks like this could be the winning thread in the contest with over 200 posts! Charles has started an excellent discussion on a topic that is apparently of great interest (and diverse opinions) here.

Roger

Roger, I for one WAS NOT in the LEAST bit Offended In fact your replies have been great IMHO. The problem is the fact that we are trying to communicate in a format, that leaves much to be desired.

BTW, I have been "lurking" in the "cafe" area & :drool5: The ART work that I am seeing is an affermation, that the "ART of Engraving" is ALIVE & WELL". & that there are those that will continue to keep the TRADITION alive.

Thank you all for letting me share & LEARN. This site is one that I will continue to watch ( & maybe toss something out there so I can continue to LEARN.)

Puffer

charles starks
04-30-2008, 06:10 PM
no offense here . simply discussing .
we also have to remember that those Pauly , Purdy and Manton guns call so much from who they were made by . there are only so many around .

as to that price range of engraving we also have to remember the clientele is relatively small who can afford such items with most in that price range being distend for collections not actual use .
Most certainly that level of workmanship is something to strive for but it is also way out of reach for the vast majority of folks I think . So in the main time we must as artisans provide items that sell in the market we are aiming for . In the end maybe we are not so different from the artisans of old

charles starks
05-01-2008, 08:14 PM
cody does some fine work . his toe plate and side plate is well done and fits .

as to what folks espect MMM good question , that would depend , if one was looking for a fine exsample or a working gun .
at a later date some exsamples would have this heavy engraving . John armstrong was known for this on his higher end exsamples .

again cody is a fine smith , very fine .

Martin Strolz
05-02-2008, 02:09 PM
It is hard to come by, but look for the book:
Master French Gunsmith`s Designs, 1970, Stephen V. Grancsay, Wichester Press, NY, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 74-99752
Reproduced in facsimile, just excellent!

Roger Bleile
05-04-2008, 10:05 PM
I have the book that Martin is writing about and it is definately something that applys to this thread. The only problem is that they were made in very limited copies and are usually very expensive if you can find one. Here is a link to one for sale for $250. which may seem high but it is a very good price and will only grow in value.

http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/cum/31343.shtml

Roger

charles starks
05-05-2008, 07:14 AM
The thing to remember is just as we have been discussing , times , and regions show great changes .
Grancsay’s book is a very good one but just like Lenk’s book , it profiles other types of weapons makers and doesn’t focus on American weapons specifically .
While most certainly the engraving and examples are wonderful , the work was in most cases at a much higher caliber then what would have been found on the rifles like the one Cody is working on..
Now this isn’t to say it didn’t exist on these rifles.
To put it simply during the time frame these were being produced here in the colonies , it was not uncommon for a gunsmith to use what he had . As such we find side plates , locks , and other hardware from both British and French weapons being used especially on ordnance made weapons .

This relates back to what puffer was saying earlier .
Basically we can do what ever we like or what the customer likes or wants on a piece . Nothing wrong with that as each of these are a work of art in and of themselves .
However if we are shooting for an example of a specific time frame, location and maker then the work should be true to the existing documented examples . As such one has to study specifics

Its also interesting to not that by looking at the original example we can tell not only what school a maker was from but what area of specialty they trained in .
Normally say a person who was more inline with wood working skills will show an example that has very well done carving and inletting . But their bright work normally suffers .
The opposite is also true in that if a person/ maker was more skilled in metal work , their engraving and bright work would be of a higher quality then their wood work those the wood areas suffered in compression.
The better smiths normally show a balance of equal skill . These are the people we most often read about today and who’s names live on

Ddbltrbl
08-11-2008, 03:42 AM
Question for puffer (or anyone else),
It may just be my lack of exposure, but I don't remember seeing anything quite like the thin 5-pointed star in a circle pattern that used on grip and back of the hammer (is that the right term for the part that holds the flint?) of several of these Scottish pistols. Are you aware of any particular significance or symbolism it has for the Scotts?

charles starks
08-11-2008, 07:47 AM
i have seen this alot on Scottish pieces of this time frame . it seems to very in detail depending on who owned the piece .
the Scottish weapons are not an area im to familiar with when it comes to their decoration or meanings .
But I will see what I can find for you

charles starks
08-12-2008, 10:06 AM
just letting you know im working on this for you .
Im sure Puffer would have the answer as the scottish peice are is area of historical knowlage .
however im not sure if he is having problems or not . i have not seen him logged on here or any of the other historical forums for some time .
I probably better give him a call and see if all is ok .
as soon as i get an answer ill post it for you

puffer
08-14-2008, 05:21 PM
Chas., Sorry for not picking up on this. Please give me a little time to get my info together.

BTW thank you for your concern. I am well, but this has been a chaotic time. I PM'd you on the TMA.

Puffer

puffer
08-16-2008, 10:46 AM
Question for puffer (or anyone else),
It may just be my lack of exposure, but I don't remember seeing anything quite like the thin 5-pointed star in a circle pattern that used on grip and back of the hammer (is that the right term for the part that holds the flint?) of several of these Scottish pistols. Are you aware of any particular significance or symbolism it has for the Scotts?

OK, here goes.

FIRST though, "Disclaimers"
1. My "thoughts" are only mine & they may be correct or not.:innocent:
2. There is NO WAY we can be definitive Esp. since we do not have the info on the owner(s)


Thoughts (IMHO)

1. What it is NOT. It is NOT a Pentagram !!! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/sporrans/180px-Pentacle_2_svg.png
Therefor (IMHO) It is NOT:
A. Pagan or Witca etc.
2. It is NOT Masonic.

WHAT IT MAYBE
A. Simply a common Design.
B. A Christian Symbol ( Star of Jacob,Star of Jesus, Star of Bethlehem etc)
1. The Scots @ this time were quite "religious" ( Catholic, Presbyterian,Episcopal) note it has been found on Gravestones ( esp, Presbyterian)
C. HERALDRY - the 5 pointed star is called a "MULLET" NOTE - the English "MULLET" differs from the Scottish, in that the English Millet is solid, But the Scottish Mullet is "PIERCED"

IMHO @ least 2 of the examples are MULLET (Scottish Versions)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/sporrans/Untitled-1-1.jpg
Note, both of these are "Pierced" 5 point Stars.

Here is a later ( 1860 ++) example of an English "MULLET" being used by by the Cameron Rifles. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v301/proffesor/sporrans/764c_1.jpg

Puffer

charles starks
08-18-2008, 06:39 AM
thank you puffer for the reply

here is also another answer that i received when i posed you question to some other folks
Cap
Most decoration on Scottish pistols are religious and known as Celtic engraving and originated from eastern countries.A lot of their designs are similar to those in the world famous Lindisfarne Gospels which were wrote by monks just south of the Scottish border.
The star sign was also pierced behind the cock ,the Campbell family and Christie family of Doune used this on several of their pistol.
Feltwad