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  #51  
Old 03-31-2008, 05:16 PM
Barry Lee Hands's Avatar
Barry Lee Hands Barry Lee Hands is offline
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

very interesting way to analize this Scott, thanks for taking the time to do it.
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  #52  
Old 03-31-2008, 08:31 PM
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pilkguns pilkguns is offline
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Default Re: Force Lines

Peter, Jerry and Big-un all are correct in their assessment.

Jim B, I loaned out my copy of Ron's second book right after I got it, and to be honest I am not familar with the term "force line" and don't have the means to look it up right now. Maybe someone who has it handy can give us a defination. But you are right that the line that goes to centered large leaf is a bit unusual. I pointed earlier in the thread that this scroll was abnormal with the scroll center or endpoint being the largest element of the pattern , and often it is the smallest, or at best a medium sized figure like a dog, eagle or cherub head. Here is it is the largest component in the pattern. Also 99% of scrolls you will encounter have this center point the true endpoint of the spine of the scroll, but this short backbone element as you describe that goes to the leaf starts in the first third of the scroll rotation rather than the termination. Nothing wrong with that, just that it's not common.
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  #53  
Old 03-31-2008, 08:50 PM
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pilkguns pilkguns is offline
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

Thanks Barry, it is a different apprpoach that really hit me as something that I could do the more I thought about this grapeleaf design. It's a very good pattern, but simple enough not having to deal with the dual lines making up the backbone and the more complex lines making up the internal leaves, that I thought I would just get out the filet knife and start laying this open once I had Tom's permission.
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  #54  
Old 03-31-2008, 09:02 PM
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pilkguns pilkguns is offline
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

Okay, here we go again with another of my photoshop piddling, but here is the overall gun with the only the main body scroll and the central leaf in each seperate section.

Can you see that leaf is in the center part of each section?

Can you see that main body scroll line is filling the area equally.

Can you see that areas outside the main body scroll line are roughly equal? Does seeing these red lines help see that each line across from each other are roughly the same length?



so once you have got this main body scroll drawn in what is the next thing that you would start to fill in space with?
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  #55  
Old 04-01-2008, 05:27 AM
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Default Re: Force Lines

Big-Un, There's always gator meat...
I'll check with some of the gator hunters and the price...
Let you know...
Jerry
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  #56  
Old 04-01-2008, 07:38 AM
Peter Peter is offline
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Default Re: Force Lines

I'm with you on the spatial relationships Scott. I'm not sure it is relevant, but I notice that the most forward leaf is positioned to lead your eyes to the center and the rear leaf faces the rear, while the backbones indicate a flow to bring them all together.

Thanks Scott,
Peter
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  #57  
Old 04-01-2008, 08:44 AM
charles starks charles starks is offline
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

Quote:
Can you see that leaf is in the center part of each section?

Can you see that main body scroll line is filling the area equally.

Can you see that areas outside the main body scroll line are roughly equal? Does seeing these red lines help see that each line across from each other are roughly the same length?
this is what i was talking about earlier .
I wasn’t saying folks should use mathematics to figure out ever scroll , only that by Appling the Golden mean you get proportions in relation to other items .
What you end up with very good framing.
Again what I see is the layout of this piece was done very nicely .
While the design isn’t overly fancy, by properly placing the work , that work becomes pleasing to the eye because it fit’s the space your working in

Also at least for me what pulls my eye isn’t the leaf itself but the placement and shading of the center of the leaf . Giving the impression of depth but with no depth actually being there. Thus your mind is being fooled into trying to make you eye focus both near and far at the same time
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  #58  
Old 04-02-2008, 09:00 PM
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pilkguns pilkguns is offline
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

We continue to get great feedback from everyone. Here are some more thoughts, this time about origination using the last two photographs. The scroll on the left under the hammer does’nt originate at the screw hole, but rather from the center of it about a ¼ inch out from it. Most scroll patterns would have used the inclusion created by the screw hole as the origination point. Actually the center scroll is doing the same thing with its origination point, from the center of the screw hole about ¼ inch a way. And the forward scroll next to the barrel, while not originating from the middle of a screw hole, it does orginate from the center of a small grape leaf.

Also interesting to me, assuming the scroll under the hammer is the starter scroll, then the middle scroll flows right off of it in the correct direction. Although honestly I don’t think this was done intentionally. I just think that the origination point and flow direction was done in the best place for both of these for the panels that they are in, actually all three of the big mainbody scrolls in each panel.


I tried to draw the orange line starting out where the flow of the panel seemed to start with some cross marks where the backbone "flow" of the scroll was running in conjunction with the flow from the panel outline.


Do you see what I am talking about?
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  #59  
Old 04-02-2008, 10:01 PM
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Tom McArdle Tom McArdle is offline
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

You are right Scott. I did not arrange the scrolls deliberately in this way. However, I have noticed that when the design is done correctly, many unforeseen things like this seem to happen!

I must say, this is very interesting. Some of the things you are analyzing I really did not think about, and some I did. Once I got the big leaf sizes and positions right, the rest really flowed pretty easily, accept for a few areas. The small leaf on the front panel as a point of origin was one of those hard areas. I just decided to break the "rules" on that one. There are a few things I might have changed after reading your analysis thus far, but I won't talk about those things yet.

You ought to talk to Steve about excerpting this for the FEGA magazine, or something. maybe you could put it in your book?

Anyway, thanks for taking the time.

To give you all an idea of the effort on tis design, I probably spent about 10 hours on it, on my own time, in order to be able to do something nice and different on this gun for Turnbull Restoration. It was a gun donated to an NRA auction back in '05.

I would hope it wouldn't take so long now!

Great job Scott!

Tom
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  #60  
Old 04-03-2008, 01:34 PM
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pilkguns pilkguns is offline
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

Quote:
Originally Posted by gravertom
You are right Scott. I did not arrange the scrolls deliberately in this way. However, I have noticed that when the design is done correctly, many unforeseen things like this seem to happen!
YES, this seems to be the case in lots of designs. As Charles said, maybe the Golden Ration comes through,even though it is not physically used or even known about in most cases.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gravertom
There are a few things I might have changed after reading your analysis thus far, but I won't talk about those things yet.

Well feel free to jump in with them anytime,. Meanwhile here is another pic


Here you can see where Tom began filling in the area around the loading gate with his medium sized scrolls.
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  #61  
Old 04-04-2008, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

The final step for scroll design is interior leaves that make up the smallest portion of the design. These are repeated with regularity as the scroll runs around its circular path.

One of the reasons why I really liked this pattern Tom did for teaching purposes is that it doesnt have any background and it does'nt have any complex leaves that make it more difficult for newbies to get lost in the overall pattern. The interior leaves in this case are really only the comma shaped cuts coming off th backbone. What I want you to see in this picture is that these interior leaves, are basically the same shape all the way around the backbone. Next I want to you to see that they are equally spaced as they go around. They are equi-distant from each other, which leaves an equal amount of background or "negative space" in between each leave. This balanced look is what we are striving for as we draw our interior leaves into place. This what Ron Smith calls meter or rhyme to describe the cadence of these scrolls as they fill aroudn the scroll spines.

To make this simpler, I am going back to the front panel to show this spacing and am using some blue to show the equal spacing


Now, these are not the only elements that have meter to them as they go around the spine. Take a look around the spine, on the outward pointing leaves. they are the same comma looking leaves as the interior has, and also, there are the fully formed typical scroll type leaves, that we saw earlier made into a triangle as they stood alone in the whole design. But as they fit around the backbone, they also have their own cadence or rhyme. Notice how these blue lines are roughly equal in length.


Okay, now it's time for your responses. What other elements do you see on the outside of the scroll spine that have their own rhyme???
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  #62  
Old 04-05-2008, 11:13 AM
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

This is very good thread Scott. Even so good that I'm not sure I can add any intelligent questions or comments here

But answer to your question about which elements outside of the scroll have their rhyme. I see two things actually - all those little 'things' (floral vocabulary lacking here) pointing outward, and inward too, are equally spaced. Some of them with grapes. Second thing, If I use my imagination, then I could form a rectangle of outer elements - 2 grape bunches on the left and 2 leaves on the right. Sort of rhyme, right?

It's little bit off topic, but I have to ask. When you start a design, do you really think about all these things you've talked about here? It seems like million things to keep in head at the same. Distance here, rhyme there, leaf here and there, not there etc. I think and hope that it comes naturally after a time. I draw a backbone, it looks little off here, correct it. Draw a bunch of leaves and correct them until it's pleasing to the eye. But of course I must know why it looks bad and know how to correct it.
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  #63  
Old 04-05-2008, 07:18 PM
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Sam Welch Sam Welch is offline
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

Vilts,

When I start a design I just draw the main spirals of the scroll patterns until I get a layout that is pleasing to me and seems to fit the area and the shape of the gun. Once that is drawn to my liking, I can then start filling in leaves and tendrils, or whatever is to be the scroll style. In my opinion, if you get the spirals just right and without elbows or flats, you have more than half the job done. But if you don't get the spirals right, no amount of wonderful leaves or other fill will save you. So, get that down first and then a lot of different options are open to you to finish the design. Not very well said but I hope you get the idea. Sam.
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  #64  
Old 04-06-2008, 12:08 AM
LesHolmes LesHolmes is offline
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

Tom it's a beautiful design beautifully executed!

Scott's analysis has really given an amateur like me a lot to think about.

Is there some place I can see a picture of the finished piece?

Also, will there be a discussion of the other side?
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  #65  
Old 04-06-2008, 10:56 AM
Peter Peter is offline
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

I see a balance between the bunches of grapes in relation to each other and between the two smaller leaves on the right side of the panel. The two bunches of grapes on the right are positioned over and under a leaf giving an overall balance to that area.

Peter
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  #66  
Old 04-07-2008, 05:42 AM
Alain Alain is offline
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

This is a good analysis of the bases of an ornamental composition.
It highlights well the general structure with the concepts of symmetry, inversion, opposition, alternation, rhythm etc.... The geometry is often present but is not always apparent in the most part of the decorative compositions and it is generally used in a intuitive way.

These abstract notions are explained well here in their practical application.

My personal opinion is that it is however necessary to be careful, by applying these processes, not to fall in an excess of "structuralism" which we see so often in the contemporary arts. This basic structure must be “dressed” at the risk of falling into the dryness. Some flesh on a skeleton is needed!
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  #67  
Old 04-08-2008, 10:13 AM
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

wow, we have some great information, thanks for sharing Sam, Peter, Viljo, Les and Alain. I am leaving tomorrow for Beijing for 10 days, and have really been busy trying to get things done before I head to the airport the last few days. I will work on a more complete response for some of this while flying over.
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  #68  
Old 04-08-2008, 11:58 AM
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

Scott Thanks for this tutorial, Great class and something to work on...
Have a Great Safe Trip and enjoy...
Jerry
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  #69  
Old 04-11-2008, 04:32 PM
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pilkguns pilkguns is offline
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

we interrupt our regularly scheduled program for this interesting preview.

http://www.pilk-uns.com/picsW/ch8.htm

This is what I'm doing in China the next week, taking pics and writing stories. The Lion Dancing is absolutely wonderful, precision athletics at its highest form. It's a shame you can't see it, but the movements were so lifelike as it pranced and danced around
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  #70  
Old 04-12-2008, 09:50 PM
Peter Peter is offline
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

That is an incredible event from what I can see from the pictures. It must be even more incredible to see it in person. Just seeing China would be intersting in itself.

Peter
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  #71  
Old 09-01-2010, 01:30 PM
JMBarnes JMBarnes is offline
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Default Re: Scrollwork design and analysis, step by step tutorial

Simple design - craftsmanship is also very obvious.
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