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  #1  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:00 PM
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Daniel Houwer Daniel Houwer is offline
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Default Lindsay or Grs system

Hello all engravers.

I'm trying to deside wich system to get to do my engravings and settings.
Especially stone setting with the system are inportant.
Do any of you have a lot of experience with stonesetting with the lindsay versus grs?
In Holland it is easy to try the grs system but the Lindsay is not present yet I believe.

Does anyone know of a Lindsay system in Holland?
Or can anyone tell me about theire experiance with setting stone's with the Lindsay system?

Thanks in advance,

Daniel
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  #2  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:27 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Daniel, you should reed a bit more, check the post of CO2 Foot Pedal info on page 2, Not yet a beginner.. You will get a lot of info from there.

Oops again, That's an informatife thread!
Still hope to get some stonesetters experience.
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  #3  
Old 03-11-2008, 09:52 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hi Daniel ,
I have set stones with a GRS system for almost 20 years.. not long ago I purchased a Lindsay Palm Control Air Graver ( clasic handpiece ) What a difference !! .. I saved about 50% of time doing settings . I'm able to remove smoothly large chuncks of metal by one pass instead of 5 or 6 passes in one place . Not to mention, less noise and unnesesary vibrations which are not the best thing for your body and ears . The Linsay tool and GRS is uncomparable . The first one is superior the second one become clumsy to me. See post from other day http://www.engravingforum.com/showthread.php?t=1334
all the best !
Stan Jarmolowicz

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  #4  
Old 03-11-2008, 11:36 PM
Steve Shepherd Steve Shepherd is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

I have to say that the Lindsay Graver is superior to the GRS system. I have both in my store and have not used the Grs for two years. The reason I like the Lindsay over the Grs is the adjustability and fi’nesse it has. With the Lindsay you have much more control and with the Grs system it is more like a hammer handpiece. I do stone setting most of the day and it is so much smoother for bead and bright cut stone setting as well as channel setting. For jewelry engraving it is just sweet, combined with the Lindsay graver point and I prefer a 90 degree V for all my work.

Hope this helps…Steve Shepherd
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  #5  
Old 03-12-2008, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Thanks a lot Stan and Steve!

Made my choice. I'm going to order a Lindsay graver. Funny thing because a month ago I was sure to go with grs. Now there is no doubt left.
Now the budget is a problem. I do have the funds to by the PC classic with everything I think I need, but that would about drain my reserve.

My want list,

Classic handpiece with supple black rubber handle (without controller) $995,
Portability, so I'll need the CO2 regulator for CO2 cartridges and cylinders $142
25g CO2 adapter for fitting threaded neck 25 gram CO2 cartridges $8

Foot control, idle adjust and double regulators; $249
Includes eight feet of tubing with a 1/4"NPT fitting to attach to air compressor. Auxiliary output for rotary handpiece pedal or PalmControl can be adapted to regulator on the right.

Or the PalmControl Handle without handpiece: $1695


Should I start with a footcontrole, or go straight for the ultimate, palmcontrole?
As I think, the palm controle use's even less air then the classic with a footpedle.

I just love the simplicity of the tool. Just a handpiece, a tube and an air suply. Certainly the co2 powered thingy looks fabulous to me, because I get around somewhat.

It's just that I've been pushing a footpedal for the last 18 years and have no idea about palm controle.

Can anyone advise here? I'd be greatfull very much. But I'm spinning around the final choice :willy_nilly:
Realy need your advise!

Thanks in advance.

Daniel

Last edited by Daniel Houwer; 03-12-2008 at 05:47 PM.
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  #6  
Old 03-12-2008, 06:54 PM
Dave P Dave P is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hi Daniel,

Like Stan and Steve, I have both in my shop, and have about twenty years with the GRS tools. I got the Classic about six months ago. No competition at all. It's like the difference between a driving a Ford Station Wagon and carving turns in a Porsche Turbo 911.

Most (like 90%) of the work I do with the Lindsay is standard goldsmith stuff, stone setting, burnishing, driving pins and rivets, pounding platinum investment out of crevices, raising beads, etc. As you said, it is much simpler to operate. One of the biggest differences I have noticed is maintenance. I used to have take the 901 handpiece apart and clean it about once every couple of weeks. I've taken the Classic down once (which takes about two or three seconds), and that was really because I figured it must be getting dirty, and I'd rather clean it now than right in the middle of a job. It was fine, and I haven't messed with it since. It just keeps on rockin.

The other major, huge difference is in the smoothness, especially at very low power settings. The 901 would start humming and then take off. Really a pain in the butt when I was doing fine detail work under the scope. The Classic just purrs and then purrs a little harder. If you set the speed of the rotary valve on the GraverMax very high, it would start to float (and stop hammering), like valve float in an engine. That was also a major pain. With the Classic, you get just the power you need, no more, no less. Need more power? Twist the adjustment ring. Need even more? Pull off the handle, drop the piston out, slap in the tungsten piston (which is missing from your list, by the way, don't forget it), slip the handle back on, and start hammering away on that 18k white gold bezel.

If you are used to foot pedals, the Classic will serve you well. Ten minutes of getting to know you time, and you won't even notice. I haven't tried the Palm Control, so I guess I'm not really the expert about how much better it might be, but I have had nothing but good times with the plain old Classic. Just wish Steve would crank out a burl wood handle or two. In his spare time, of course. :thumbsup: (Just kidding, Steve)

You won't be sorry for your purchase. After you have it a while, try out a 901 on a GraverMach. You'll know you chose well.

Here's a piece I just entered today in the Jeweler's Passion Award Contest. Did it all with the Lindsay Classic. Couldn't have done it nearly as well as with any other tool. It really has helped my work a lot. It'll help you too, I promise.

Dave

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  #7  
Old 03-12-2008, 07:01 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hi Daniel,
I would personally tell you. The Palmcotrol is the right choice.I been doing
stone setting for 30 years and this is today technology at it best.
It is a joy to use.

Talk to you later,
Jim
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  #8  
Old 03-12-2008, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Daniel ,

this is my personal advice , ; check first if the small CO2 cartridges are the same in Europe and USA .
.. my intuition tells me : they are not !
..and with tight budget at the moment you want to buy by priority order .
Purchase Classic hand piece with Palm Control . This way you don't have mess with foot control pedal and additional tubings . But if you can't afford palm control the pedal- foot control is still far less to deal with than GRS box and other bookie things on your bench . Later on you can convert your hand piece in to palm control. The palm Control is not only less complicated stuff to carry around ( only one tubbing between CO2 or air supply and hand piece ) but is also finest tune up system , in another words you can set up very fine idle and gentle start . There is nothing in the world which work so fine like this system . ,
What you really need for start is :
1. Classic hand piece ...is up to you if you can afford Palm Control or not ? .. ( i would give up the computer for that )
2. Pressure regulator ..i think is $75 which you mount on your bench .
those two things purchase from Steve Lindsay , is already prepared with all the fitting you need .
3. Then you need to find out about CO2 cylinder in your country and another ( first stage ) pressure regulator which will have standard fit to the CO2 cylinder ... (also in your country ) Buy a big cylinder which will last a month or two before you need to refill . Or purchase air compressor and Lindsay pressure regulator will work on any pressure supply regardless if is air or CO2.
The small cylinders are good for backup when you have no electricity or your main CO2 cylinder empty , Or portability when you need to work some other shop . The small 25 grams cylinder last only 20 minutes and if is not use completely more likely will leak out over few days . Is not practical for professional work .
So.. if i would be in your shoes , I would get the little bigger cylinder the 20 OZ . one as back up , and proper regulator for it which is also at Lindsay tool list . Is beautifully precisely made and i remember right ; it cost somewhere around $ 175 .
..But again check first if you can purchase those cylinders in Holland and be able to refill them .
... is not priority for now when you have tight budget .

Good luck ,
Stan
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  #9  
Old 03-13-2008, 06:33 AM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Thank's :smile5:

That helps a lot.

Dave, thats a fine looking ring You made there!
Really a beauty. Not to thin like this one. But customer's king.


I won't forget the tungsten piston, thank you for pointing that out.
Then there is the Burlwood handle, that is the first thing that made me want the Lindsay. It looks perfect on the tool so I think I'll just give that one for my birthday or something. Is it just a piece of wood or does it contain screwthread and things?
Jim, your ring is a classic beauty and looks like it could have been made for a princess a hundred years ago.
And Stan, I've looked up a suplyer of co2 cylinders and they look the same
http://www.paintballsuppliesleeuward...op/home&cat=22
But I will get some more info on that but I do think all about paintball is imported from America.
I've got a nice compressor that seems perfect for the job.

So thank you all for your highly valued info.

Daniel
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  #10  
Old 03-13-2008, 06:57 AM
Ray Cover Ray Cover is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Paintball equipment is standardized so if you buy it through a paintball supply the threads should be the same. The thread size is the thing you have to watch.

Other sources for co2 tanks are brewery supply houses. The 5 and 20 pound tanks are used for pressurizing beer kegs. The larger tanks are going to be more cost effective too. But you may need an adapter if the threads don't match. That should be an easy thing to find if needed.

Ray
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  #11  
Old 03-13-2008, 08:49 AM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Thanks Ray,
Didn't think of the brewery possebility.

I just ordered:whoo:
The palmcontrole with the regulators for both compressor and Co2.
And the tungsten piston, some carbalt gravers and some adapters for co2 tanks. Hope I didn't forget anything. The burl wood handle wil have to wait.

This is where my work will change.:thankyou:
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  #12  
Old 03-13-2008, 06:10 PM
Dave P Dave P is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Yes it will.

Nice ring, by the way. You are so right when you say the customer is king. I have to remind myself sometimes that I'm making something for someone else, and not for my tastes.

Stan, that's a nice ring you posted too. Is that a sapphire in the center? Bead setting in the sides and the bezels in the tops of the prongs is a nice touch. Pretty tricky, too. Did you set the diamonds in top before or after the center stone?

Jim, those are great settings on the ring you posted. Soldering those on was probably a real test. Very nice work getting everything lined up, straight and spaced perfectly. Very clean.

I hope we start seeing more jewlery work. I just love to see what everyone else is up to. What an amazing talent pool there is on this forum.

Dave
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  #13  
Old 03-13-2008, 06:23 PM
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Dave London Dave London is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Daniel
Excellent choice you will not be disappointed( how often do you see a airgraver for sale second hand:smilie5: ) Keep us posted on you experience. Dave
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  #14  
Old 03-13-2008, 06:54 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Thanks Dave and Dave,

I can't wait for the order to arive and start working with it.
Nice that you want to see more jewellery made with this engraving device.
Alas I don't have it yet, but can post some pic's of some old work of mine.
As example my first serious setting exercise made whenn I was still in school.
Made it for my grandmothers birthday. She padded away a few mont's ago and I made some picture's of it.
Found a book once with Faberge's work. It fell open on the page with this foto. Bought te book right away without seeing much of the rest just to remake this pendant.



Done with a minimal amount of tools and even looking back on it with the thougt that I would do things different today, I'm still proud of it.
When I get the chance I will make this one again in 18pdwhitegold, diamonds and better ruby's instead of the silver and cz used back then.
The original had the blue/gray in quartz chalcedone. Mine is with flame bleu'd titanium.
The new one will be set ofcourse with the aid of the classic PC Lindsay:yesnod:

Thank's so far,

Daniel
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Old 03-13-2008, 07:17 PM
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Dave London Dave London is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Daniel
look like excellent work to me, I have never tried stone setting. However I have started making some pendants for the wife, and ordered some braclet material, been busy making practice plate Tsubas color engraving and repousse, I will post some pics soon
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  #16  
Old 03-14-2008, 03:40 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Oh Dear, Tsuba's!

I love everything with a sharp edge. My wife and I collect Indonesian Kerisses and we have two old and one new blade's from Japan.
2 Katana's and 1 wakazachi. Katana and Wakazachi dating back to around 1600. 1 Katana is seccond wearldwar thing.

We have cast a few tsuba's in bronze (charcoal fire and bellows and handmade crucible's like in the bronzeage) and Karin (my wife) has carved one in wax (only thing now is to find someone who can cast it in iron)
One of the cast tsuba's is adorning my brothers practise sword. He is high up the black belts in various japanese fighting techniques. He wants to move to Japan and live there. (not) Funny thing is that my mother was kept in a Japanese warcamp on Java for a few years back in 1943 till the end of the war I believe. She's not very glad with my brothers wishes and my collection of kerisses and Japanese sword's. Hard for us both, but it seems like it has to be this way:o

Cant find the pictures right now, otherwise i'd post them.

Hope to see your's soon!!!
What does bracelet material look like?

Greetings,

Daniel

Last edited by Daniel Houwer; 03-14-2008 at 04:11 PM.
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  #17  
Old 03-14-2008, 04:40 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Thank you , Dave i did all this work because i love complements ha ha . ... to be honest it become my curse .
-- Is hard to do decent work for leaving this days . Average people in the jewelery industry do not recognize the different between " cut corners " job and effort one . or they pretending ignorance about because not willing to pay accordingly .
As artist and craftsman of such magnitude ( your ring is amazing !!) you know that 20% improvement cost about 80% of bench time ..and wee usually put more than 100 % in to finish nicely our project .

So.. i truly appreciate your recognition of my effort . Is almost necessary to have that support from experts (Who does such clean beautiful work ) in order to keep going . Make you feel that you not alone as a minority of thinking kind in the not thinking society .

Your ring is outstanding ....now i have to go back to workshop and work even harder to catch up with you ... i can't stand when somebody is better than me !!!!

answering :
i did set little diamonds in bezels and nearby ones after i set the big topaz
( ..is not sapphire , it was sentimental value family topaz )
The ring was done in palladium ( 10% iridium 90% pall. )
after setting center stone i wrap the whole ring in to cling wrap (food wrap ) and dipped in to JET-SET ( is difficult to remove Jet-set from corners if you don't put liner in between ) to hold prongs from spreading while i was hammering the bezels ...of course i put electric tape on top of topaz preventing from scratching during handling .

On micro setting i precut everything before i place diamonds , ..everything is finish - bright cuts done
i set stones with effect of like " hanging in air " and reflecting like in mirror from the perfect mirror finish from polished carbalt graver ,-only carbalt or other carbide cutters will not stick and drag platinum or palladium .
Setting by this method have 3 major advantages you can afford to do blind setting if is needed .
( It means not drilling all the way trough . ) since there is cleaning access trough gaps on sides -
(bright cuts are going under the griddle )
The most important one is : there is no other way to do achieve really deep clean setting . and the most secure one .
There is more advantages but i have not much time to write more about ..one of them is almost no breakage of stones and no need to sharpening graver every few minutes , since no touching the stones .
Gosh ! how big different is now when all this curving out is done in almost half time by using Air Graver with tungsten piston !!!!..



...Jim , your band is a graceful and delicate as design .. not to mention high level of skills , i'm jealous about your talent and taste .. you guys don't let me rest hmmm ..!!!


...Daniel , to make pendants like that when you were still in school ??!!!!.. now i'm turning purple and my blood pressure is approaching dangerous level ... you guys give me a brake !!


Thanks a lot !

Stan Jarmolowicz
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  #18  
Old 03-14-2008, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Stan,
Wauw, thank you for your compliment.
Stupid thing is that I never showed this pendant to any teacher at the time.
The setting lesson's where not very good alas. I could teach them way better today!
It was the question what to get for my (late) grandmothers birthday. I proposed that if the material was funded I would make the pendant.
After 40 hours I stopped counting them, boy, what a roocky I was:yesnod:

Still want to make one the proper way with gold and diamond's and hopefully this year! With the Lindsay graver.

After seeing your ring I'm in awe. Not about the design though (not my favorite) but the workmanship envolved! Perfect and gruesomly consystant! Could you tell me something about the way you handle your aproache?

Do you cut out the setting's before setting the stone"s?
There is the Other way by setting the stones first and then cutting out the rest. And do you use the tungsten piston for the big removal's?

Thank's again.

Daniel
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Old 03-15-2008, 01:08 PM
noud peters noud peters is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hallo Daniel,

Intresting reading you thread off the Linsay or GRS system. I have been working with the Gravermax for more the 20 years an was very pleast with the tool, I still am.
But when I'm reading Stan and all the other's there account i'll doubt.
latly I spoke Roland Baptiste from Belgem and he just got a new airgraver and he was thrild.
I think that you Daniel, will be the first one in Holland who is going tho work with a Linsay airgraver
Let me know when you've got the airgraver so whe can meet and try the tool.
Thanks to all the other craftsmen for sharing there knowledge.

So long Noud Peters
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Old 03-15-2008, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

On micro setting i precut everything before i place diamonds ,
..everything is finish - bright cuts are done
i set stones with effect of like " hanging in air " and reflecting like in mirror from the perfect mirror finish bright cuts .
...yes i use tungsten piston and the regular one as well ..i change them accordingly to the situation .
When i start work and remove big chunks of material i use tungsten . but sometime not.. the stainless piston has also enormous power is just different fill more frequency and pretty good speed as well .
I guess it depend a lot on size of the stones to be set hardness of metal and how much mass resistance the piece i'm working on have and how much i can create of that resistance by backing it with shelack , jet set or expending metal mandrell if is a ring ???..

However i use both pistons and love them both .

I did set stones by quick method years ago by placing them in the sits first and cut metal around .
...Not any more ever .. for real high end jewelry i consider this as improper way .
To achieve nice clean masterpiece setting , cut out first all unwanted material ...finish completely then set the stones and bend the prongs over to hold them in place .

All the best ,
Stan
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  #21  
Old 03-15-2008, 02:49 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave P

Jim, those are great settings on the ring you posted. Soldering those on was probably a real test. Very nice work getting everything lined up, straight and spaced perfectly. Very clean.

I hope we start seeing more jewlery work. I just love to see what everyone else is up to. What an amazing talent pool there is on this forum.

Dave
Hi Dave,
I'm glad you like the setting. The bracelet turned out really well and the customer
loves it. Again these are fairly big stones just over a carat for the large ones.
The metal is platinum with 18k yellow gold.
Talk to you later,
Jim
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Last edited by jimzim75; 03-15-2008 at 10:40 PM.
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  #22  
Old 03-15-2008, 05:50 PM
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Daniel Houwer Daniel Houwer is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hallo Noud!
Nice to meet you here as well.
Quote:
I think that you Daniel, will be the first one in Holland who is going tho work with a Linsay airgraver
If So I will be honoured and you will be one of the first to try it.
I believe that we will pass your house next month (after a litle detour) and then you can see and work it for yourself. The work you do with the grs system is of such quality that I hope to get to that level with the Lindsay someday. Could you tell me what graver's u use for your setting's?

thank you Stan for your information.
I mostly use the quick method as you call it, but your way seems a bit hard on the wrist whenn using pushgravers. Did some like that with pushgravers in silver some time ago and a few with the gravemax in titanium and silver.
After next week I'll certainly do some more!
I heared that a lot of stone setters use onglette gravers a lot. Until now I'm really fond of square and flatgraver's. Any difference with the precut setting's?

Thanks again,

Daniel

Ps, Jim, I thought it was a ring to! But what a lovely bracelet then.
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  #23  
Old 03-17-2008, 11:35 AM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

I found the 20oz co2 cylinder in Holland.
In the USA they cost 20$
In Holland 45,-euro wich is 70$
Wander if it's worth it to order them in the US to.
Allmost a pitty that Steve doesn't sell them.

Greetz,

Daniel
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Old 03-17-2008, 12:31 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hi Daniel,
I bought a regulator for a compressor and CO2. I normally use the compressor and only use the CO2 because I can quickly move the station
about. Why are you concentrating on CO2 so much. Is this a noise issue
and your engraving in a apartment?

If your running a compressor, all your paying is the electricity.

Talk to you later,
Jim
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  #25  
Old 03-17-2008, 05:45 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hy Jim,

My work envolves working for a diamond factory for 3 days a week, having my own bysnis dealing with reparations, restaurations and new work, our Historical Metalgroup Kinheim (every monday evening whe do work concerning replica's and building up our ever wanting want for period tools and accesoirs and such)
(Tonight I was trying to finisch a wooden handle on a huncheback scramma seax I made with a piece of 5000 year old Oak wood found at a excavation site in the north of holland belonging to an old swamp bridge dating back to the early bronze age.:yesnod: )
But tomorrow I have to entertain a 12 year old class (prep school?) with a litle story of how Iron came into our posession an how it worked up till the half middle ages and make some midle eaval fibula's with them. Tomorow evening (just like thursday evening) I give classes at the NLC, a group of amatuer's with sometimes a very high level (love to think because of me)
And in between I try and visit some medieval "come together's" were whe show off our handicrafts. (all pro deo)

And in between I try to visit a lot of college's and since a few month's I'fe decided to spend a day in their workshop to see how they are doing and have them come over to my shop and interreact. Let's see if it work's.

So for the old time things (making casting models out of bronze or bone and stuff) and the visiting colleagues and wanting to be free,
I would love a few co2 cylindres.

The first time whe let the compressor runn whe thought it was broken because the background noise was louder then the compressor was.
Just because I want to be able to use the graver where I want, Ive choosen the Lindsay PC with the posibility to use co2.
With the co2 I can show a lot of colleagues of the posibility's of the Lindsays.
I have more then seven lined up already and I haven't eaven received the tool yet! Most of them don't have a suitable compressor if at all.

Co2 is the answer! And ofcourse i want to practise on holiday's and such.
Best way to show off a great piece of equipment!

Thank you,

The company wher my wife works has recently bought the same microscope I have and is very interested in the Lindsay graver! Just like 2 other goldsmith''s I already know off. :yesnod:
Daniel

Last edited by Daniel Houwer; 03-18-2008 at 03:09 AM.
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Old 03-17-2008, 09:42 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Okay, so CO2 cartidges make a whole of sence with your schedule, and
I thought I had a hecktic life. I like the fact that I can use the tool in
different places in my shop, but I really like the regulator for the compressor
with the three way valve.

Unlike yourself, I no longer work outside my own shop anymore. So improving
it has been one of my side projects. Beyond doing the normal jewellery
and engraving stuff that has to kept up. I was busy putting in new shelves
into the design/computer room. I really beginning to love this room.
The place is beginning to look professional.
Oh well that's it for tonight.
Talk to ya later,
Jim
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  #27  
Old 03-18-2008, 03:33 AM
noud peters noud peters is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hi everyone,

About the Linsay or GRS system, I do a lot off chasing and I use the gravermach with 710 handpiece and the large 720 handpeice.
Is it posseble with the airgraver?
Anyone else expirience with chasing and silversmithing?

Noud Peters
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  #28  
Old 03-18-2008, 04:53 PM
James Lynn James Lynn is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hi, Noud--and everyone--

I do a lot of chasing, and teach it as well, all by hand so far. Steve has generously sent us a Classic and a Palm Control to use here at Austin Community College. We have experimented with them in engraving, and everyone who's tried it wants one--especially the Palm Control. I am planning to make a few chasing tools for them soon and try them on that. I don't see why they wouldn't work for all but the heavy repoussage work.

I'll post again when I have more

James Lynn
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Old 03-18-2008, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

James,

THe nickel I recently posted in the gallery forum was mostly chased with punches and palm control rather than carved with chisels. I have also been using chasing to sculpt some scroll work and I am happy with the results so far.

I am using the palmcontrol with a tungsten piston with the stroke length wide open. I have the air pressure at about 50lbs. I am making my punches out of used burs and broken beading punches.


If the metal is malleable you can manipulate it quite well this way.

Ray
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Old 03-18-2008, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hi Noud, James and Ray,

Wich metals do you prefere to chase?
I'd guess silver but to what thickness? With punch and hammer you can use 0.8mm pretty well. For the deeper work it's sometimes very convenient to have more thickness. Normaly I would chose 0.5mm and for small and fine work 0.3 if it's not to deep. Gold Ive never tried and copper seems a waist of time unless practising.

And I read one of Steve's post's on how to handle stippling with the handpiece. Wich of those settings do you prefere for chasing?

Feel like I'm back in school but with much better teachers!
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Old 03-18-2008, 06:48 PM
Ray Cover Ray Cover is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Daniel,

Most of the stuff I have been playing with has been mild steel practice plates. I am wanting to try it on 416 stainless. If it works on the 416 stainless then I can use the technique on knives. I eventually want to try this technique on a gun.

The metal does not need to be thin like with repousse work. As long as it is malleable it can be pushed around with the punches.
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Old 03-18-2008, 09:39 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Daniel,

Here is one of the mild steel sample plates. I did not finish it. That's a good thing because it allows you to see the technique.

Notice how only the outline and main low spots are heavily and quickly cut out with gravers. A square is used for the outline and flat areas and a round is used for the rounded low spots.

Then punches are used to chase, mold and detail the shapes by moving the metal around.

This would still need to be scraped and stoned or burnished to a final finish.

I first became interested int his technique when I saw a practice plate that Sam Alfano had. I was fortunate enough to get to inspect it first hand at last years engraving in and picks Sam's brain a bit about how he did it. I pretty much took the basic concepts and ran with it.

Ray

Attached Images
File Type: jpg sculpt.jpg (193.0 KB, 81 views)
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Old 03-19-2008, 04:28 AM
noud peters noud peters is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hi James and Ray,

About chasing, with the small parts and soft material there will be no problem.
What about silver 0,8 mm and raissing it about 4 - 8 mm.

With the gravermax you can play with the strokes pro minute adjustment
for smooth and coarse effect.

Daniel, when the airgraver arrives we have a lot to pratice.

Noud Peters
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Old 03-19-2008, 04:39 AM
noud peters noud peters is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hi Stan, Dave and Daniel,

You all make beautiful jewelry, nice pictures.
You use macro lens or other equipment? please let me now.

Noud Peters
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Old 03-19-2008, 06:40 AM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Noud,

I honestly don't know about 8mm silver. I have never tried that so I am shy to say it will work for sure.

My feeling is that with the heavy tungsten piston installed, the stroke length set on long and the air pressure at 50-70 it probably would. However, you would have to try it to make sure.

It has no trouble moving the steel around so suspect it could manipulate soft silver even though is was very thick.


Ray
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Old 03-19-2008, 08:50 AM
noud peters noud peters is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hi Ray,

Thanks for your information. So at the airgraver you can change stroke lenght and play with airpressure to get different result off preformens?
It is easy to change I gess!

Noud Peters
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Old 03-19-2008, 09:11 AM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

yes it is easy to change.

There are also different weights of pistons you can get. Light ones for soft delicate work and heavy ones for powerful work.

For the type of work you are wanting to do I would recommend trying the piston made of tungsten. It is the heaviest and hits hard.

Ray
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  #38  
Old 03-19-2008, 09:58 AM
Gene Tru Gene Tru is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hi Ray, Nice illustration! What is the approx. size of the scroll on your plate?
Thanks, Gene
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:07 AM
Ray Cover Ray Cover is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

From the base where is grows out from the copper inlay to the end it is about an inch long (25mm).

It could be done smaller you would just have to use punches with smaller faces.

Ray
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:22 AM
Gene Tru Gene Tru is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Ray, as I am fairly new to the forum and am busy reading all that i can squeeze in, are these punches you mention hand-held or do they fit your handpiece. I'm sure this has been covered elsewhere, just haven't got around to reading everything. It would make sense to me that the punches would fit your handpiece.
Gene
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Old 03-19-2008, 10:24 AM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

yes they do use them in my palm control air graver.

Ray
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  #42  
Old 03-19-2008, 12:39 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hay All,

I have not read the thread yet, and have no time at the moment but just want to say that Fedex was at my door today

AND I WAS AT WORK IN AMSTERDAM

I can cry right now (but that has to do with the fact that somebody has opened my other packedge containing 100ct of 50.000grid diamond powder, and it says, "packedge damaged at Haarlem" wich probably means I lost 200$ because I wil not get it back!!!)

Hopefully tomorrow I will be home whenn they try to deliver!

I will be reading again after I'm done working.

Daniel
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Old 03-19-2008, 03:49 PM
James Lynn James Lynn is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hi, everyone-

The metal I use most for chasing and repoussage is fine silver. I use 20ga. (.8mm) most of the time. 4-8mm of relief is not a problem if you take it in stages and anneal fairly often. It's even possible to undercut raised areas, to get a "floating" effect. Here's a thumbnail of a rose I did that way, and a view from the side showing the relief. It's about 2 inches (50mm) wide. The center fin on the fish is about 6mm up from the edges.

I always feel I haven't gotten the most out of the metal unless I tear through it in at least one place. Hard solder fixes those tears.

I am using the the Air Graver on a current project. It takes time to make even a basic set of chasing tools (I have around 200 punches in my set.), so it will be a while before I can make a good comparison, but initially it seems like it will be a real time saver. At this point, I'm thinking that it will be most useful on the earlier, roughing out stages, simply because the effect of so many tiny blows is so smooth that the handmade character of the piece could be lost. This is just an aesthetic preference, like the choice between oil painting and airbrush work, either of which can be done well or not.

JamesRose chasing.jpg

Rose chasing, side.jpg

Fish chasing.jpg
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  #44  
Old 03-19-2008, 06:28 PM
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Hy Ray,

Quote:
I pretty much took the basic concepts and ran with it.
Think youre running quit well!!! Opens up a whole new view about chasing as well!
I thought that dent's where the trick. Now it seems that moving material from one place to the other without denting the bottem is called chasing to!
Wauw Ray, increadyble work!
Do you shape your punshes just like the hammer and punch type? or do you alter them to push the material sidways? For repousse work you've got a number of punches needed But I think mine would be way to big and blunt and shiny for the work you do.

James
That is some fine work there!
Quote:
I always feel I haven't gotten the most out of the metal unless I tear through it in at least one place. Hard solder fixes those tears.
e
That means that in the past I did some amazing chasing work!!!

Bedtime though!

Good Night!
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  #45  
Old 03-20-2008, 04:16 PM
noud peters noud peters is offline
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hy Daniel,
I hear nothing from you, Y've got it?
How is it working?
I'll hear from you.

Noud Peters
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  #46  
Old 03-20-2008, 04:59 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

You never guess what the fedexs guys brougth me today!!!

What a sweet machine to handle! Every word is true, you will not regret the palmcontrol! I'm just like the other guys that want to take the thing to bed! (I won't though because I turn a lot and my wife would hate red sheet's)
So thank you guys for the first class information that helped me make my choice! There wil certainly some questions following, but for now I just want to engrave. Was a hard day that tought me some patience. I could only start playing with it at 15.00 and suddenly I had only 20 minutes left to have dinner, pack my things, brush my teeth and cycle to wher I give goldsmithing instructions starting at 19.00.
I just got back and wil look on the forum quickly and then go back to wher the funn is! I allso made a few copy's to transfer. I want a laser printer to! Ill be doing some things from James B. Meeks book. Not very special, but I was to stressed for time to be really picky at the copycentre.


Noud, 11th of April (my wedding date and first year aniversary ) we will pay you a visit. We is Karin, Lindsay and me
And I promise you this
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  #47  
Old 03-21-2008, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Wauw,

What a machine!!! I've been toying around a lot with the Lindsay.
I've allso attempted some serious work and was surprized about my controle.
Very tender when starting to push and smooth all the way to the heavy stuff!
Such a different machine compaired with the Gravemax.

The only problem is, I'm so in love with Lindsay that I can't find the time to do my repairs and other work
Thank God it will be awfull weather here in Holland, otherwise whe would have been blacksmithing outside tomorrow. Now I might have the time to catch up with my work. I should hide the Lindsay though, cause if I see it I want to use it.
It should be added to the adictive drug's list or something!

Because I was sick at home a few weeks ago I enlisted to this forum and had the time to sift through all the perfect info here. Alas a week not working at the workbence has piled up some work to. Somebody already sayd I've got a busy scedual, but now it's more busy then ever! And keeping up all the post's at this forum seems impossible. I'lldo my best! If I create something with the Lindsay that I'm proud off I will post it!

Thanks for all your advise and support!

Daniel
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  #48  
Old 03-21-2008, 06:29 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hi Daniel,
I think your totally in zone. No wonder you forgot the
What's your ONE tip? thread. You'd better tie a rope to your leg or
you'll float away. Of course I been there and there no doubt that the Palm is
pretty cool tool. Hope you got the tungsten piston by you'll really go nuts
once you tried that. I was talking to Steve and he's got me revved to try it
at 80 psi of pressure. So enjoy.
Talk to ya later,
Jim
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  #49  
Old 03-23-2008, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hy Jim,

I've got the tunksten piston and will use it soon but have not tried it yet.
I'm loving the gentle engraving and easy hairline's now.


Lot's to learn and lot's to study but I'm having a lot of fun in the process already.
Next picture was done without air assist.

Transferring make's a lot of difference I know. And for now I will do with what I have. Did these J.B. Meek's in negative and copyed them.

And I feel like a hidden talent may be rising up! Never thougt I could engrave letter's but with the Lindsay it's just tracing line's! Transferring seems the key and I've got a lot to study on that subject!!!

Thank you all so far!!!

Daniel.

(I will try some stone setting's as soon as I find the time to proparly grind my gravers!)
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  #50  
Old 03-24-2008, 11:21 AM
Elise Elise is offline
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Default Re: Lindsay or Grs system

Hello Daniel,

I did hear from Ad you did order and already have the Lindsay gratulations
also from Ad he's still in Finland but will back begin this week, this week i start
making a new serie pre printed sample plates i will give Ad a few he can send these then to you, i do work now a few months with the Classic its for me more
than a tool, it did improve my engraving a lot.

Maar oefening baart de kunst, alleen vervelend dat er zoveel tijd in gaat zitten
maar met je nieuwe graver vliegt wel de tijd.

Greetings Elise

P.S Noud ik denk dat je dit ook wel leest ik als je die Lindsay probeert van Daniel
weet ik zeker dat jer ook zo een hebt.
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