Geometric Lathe

[plat955]

This is a very cool tool used by engravers of years past

[plat955]

Sorry wrong pics. This is the geometric lathe. I was told that the one and only one the Gov. had... was mislabeled and lost in one of the thousands of warehouses that are used for storage by the Government... 20yrs ago. Every time you see that cool spider web pattern this is how it was done. NOT by hand.

[plat955]

Quick note:
There are captions under all the pics describing them. Zoom in as far as possible to read.

[Steve Lindsay]

What a machine! I'd like to find one for sale.

[Gail]

Those are called guilloche machines. There is a company that occassionally has one for sale. Check out the link. They are all antique, and pricey.

http://davidgoldphoto.com/machinery/6043.htm

You often see work done by these machines under enameled pieces such as were made in the shops of Faberge.
gail

I forgot to add that they also sell on ebay as 'goldmachinery', lots of heavy industrial stuff as well as antique. I am sure it would be a fun place to visit if ever in Rhode Island.

[airamp]

Hi Gail,

Yes they are R.I. Since it is one of (if not the) smallest states, they made a lot of the costume jewlery for years.

Gold Machinery company has been around for quite some time. I used to live in connecticut and would visit there on many occasions. They do have some great old equiptment and you could spend a day in there warehouse checking out everything from Italian gold chain making machines to bridgeport's, cnc jewlery making equiptment and all types of ovens.

If you are in Pawtuck R.I. (or near Newport) you should call them and enjoy some really cool stuff. They are pricey but they are the only ones in the area that keep (or have been Keeping) the vintage tools from the turn of the century on..

AirAmp

[plat955]

The guilloche machines are very cool and have a kind if similar look to the pattern, but they are very different from a Geometric Lathe. This machine scribed through an acid resist then was etched. Then transfer pressed twice for the negative. What you actually see on the bills are a negative of what this machine actually produced. This machine was built and patented by a banknote engraver for banknote engraving... but hey a guilloche machine would be a great addition to the antique tool section! :yesnod:

[Gail]

Hi plat955, Thanks for pointing out the difference between the machines.
Do you know how the designs were set up for the machine to re-produce? Like was there a 'master' that was hand generated first? Were there more than one or two more of these lathes ever made? Since similar designs appeared on various types of certificates and documents is it incorrect to believe they were in use by more than one company or person?
Thanks for the pictures. Neat stuff!
gail

[Chapi]

I think of all the interesting things that have been revealed to me in learning about engraving, the money making aspect has to be the most interesting. I had always assumed that there was some kind of spirograph-type machine that made those designs, but I would have never imagined something this big or complex, thanks for enlightening me, I look forward to seeing more interesting antique tools and equipment.
-Chapi

[plat955]

Your welcome
I'm going to try to do my best to explain...LOL All of my info is either from out of print old books that I purchased at auction or what I was told personally by the cheif engraver from the BPE. (please read the post on "Transfer Press" click the pics and zoom in to read captions under the pics)

Ok I attatched a scan from a book I have that gives a little info. The Geometric lathe was first invented by Asa Spencer in 1812. Engraving banknotes was still very much in its infancy at that time and started to blosom from around 1830 and on. Banknote engravers were private firms, there were only a handfull in the North East, US. Up until the civil war anyone that had enough gold bullion could apply for a bankers license, employ an engraving firm and print as much paper money as they had coin to back it up. Thus loans, interest, bla blah were born.

Being that these were private "security" engraving firms in competition. They coveted and hid this technology. Then Mr. Spencer died. W.L. Ormsby modified, changed, and patented his new and improved version. He sold them to other banknote engraving firms or upgraded theirs. Also he was a huge activist against counterfieting. So I'm pretty sure they didn't stray far.

In 1858 two of these firms joined to form American Banknote Company, and proceeded to buy up all the firms in exsistance including their engravers,equipment, and assets. Huge, crazy monopoly!

The last one known in existance was lost some 20+ yrs ago by our government. mislabeled? I was told...LOL

So my first question was how do you keep using the patterns if you don't have the machine? The answer I recieved was "transfer press". Crates filled with rollers with these patterns on them. Purchased by our Gov from American Bank Note Co when U.S. currency was made Federal.

I was told: The B.P.E. hardly used it when it was there. They have enough rollers to transfer press into eternity.

Then how do you do long rectangular strips with variations of patterns? This machine only makes frilly roundish or ovalish patterns?

My answer: Machine off everything but a wedge shape off of a roller. and roll it alternating onto a steel plate in a strip! I was freekin blown away! LOL

I hope this is kind of clear LOL sorry for the history lesson I though it was necessary.